Tonight Show "Vault" Series-Some Thoughts (1 Viewer)

[Mike Frezon]

And those too follow the Sotzing cheapskate model of (1) hacking out all trace of Ed McMahon and all other guests on the couch and (2) replacement music.

But since the 2nd show on the "Vault" release is intact (in terms of Ed McMahon and the music from the Tonight Show Orchestra), why do you suppose this is a hit-or-miss proposition? It seems odd to me that its not consistent.

 

[AndyMcKinney]

But since the 2nd show on the "Vault" release is intact (in terms of Ed McMahon and the music from the Tonight Show Orchestra), why do you suppose this is a hit-or-miss proposition? It seems odd to me that its not consistent.

So, is the second episode 100% as-broadcast (no music replacements at all, not even the opening theme or Ed's NBC Orchestra voiceover?). If so, then yes, that is bizarre. Normally I'd guess they couldn't clear everybody (maybe a substitute player in the band?), but since this episode is supposedly one that was cleared for sale "direct from the archives" on VHS years back, one would assume if it was clearable then, it would also be clearable now.

If they have intentions of truly uncut shows (if the second one on the disc is) and some obstacle (paperwork, or expensive person/music to clear), then I think they would have been far better off to have picked a "safer" episode instead of one they had to edit, even if it had to come from 1973 or later. I'm sure there would have been far more positive response if they had done that and had two truly uncut episodes on there.

Though I would love for the episodes to include the band playing during the "local" commercial breaks, I can understand why those bits might be trimmed out, since only people watching via satellite would've had access to those performances back in the day. All the other changes are inexcusable.

 

[John Karras]

But since the 2nd show on the "Vault" release is intact (in terms of Ed McMahon and the music from the Tonight Show Orchestra), why do you suppose this is a hit-or-miss proposition? It seems odd to me that its not consistent.

If you read the earlier post, the second episode is not intact and has music replacement as well. The commercial break bumper music has been replaced, and the guest playons have all been substituted with overdubbed applause and second-rate stock music.

 

[Jack P]

Disappointing, but not surprising. Like I said, you will never, never, never see a complete set of any variety show or talk show on DVD. Not with the way clearance issues work now, and it's a double whammy for these types of programs cause you have to clear music AND celebrity appearances.

I think game show sets fall under this category too.

Actually, the BCI releases of "The Price Is Right" and "Match Game" left more in than what you'd see in the average GSN repeat. Even in its prime, when GSN didn't give us credit crunches and left in the fee plugs, they never left in the contestant/ticket promos which always were left in on the BCI sets.

"Name That Tune" has never been repeated even though the classic 70s episodes hosted by Tom Kennedy do exist (the 1984 Jim Lange version did have a rerun shelf-life into the mid--90s on USA and FAM) and would never make it to DVD because of music issues. The only Goodson-Todman classic that would fall in this category is "I've Got A Secret" which often had variety type music bits.

The short-lived 1983 game show "Hit Man" never made it to GSN repeats because of music issues as well (they would have packaged "stories" to quiz contestants on and all of these drew heavily from film music sources).

 

[Mike Frezon]

I had gone back and read the OP, John...which didn't give much indication the 2nd show in the release had issues.

I've now gone back and re-read the entire thread and I see your initial post which complained about the playons...but there were few context clues to tie those complaints directly to the 2nd episode.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[JMFabianoRPL]

Actually, the BCI releases of "The Price Is Right" and "Match Game" left more in than what you'd see in the average GSN repeat. Even in its prime, when GSN didn't give us credit crunches and left in the fee plugs, they never left in the contestant/ticket promos which always were left in on the BCI sets.

"Name That Tune" has never been repeated even though the classic 70s episodes hosted by Tom Kennedy do exist (the 1984 Jim Lange version did have a rerun shelf-life into the mid--90s on USA and FAM) and would never make it to DVD because of music issues. The only Goodson-Todman classic that would fall in this category is "I've Got A Secret" which often had variety type music bits.

The short-lived 1983 game show "Hit Man" never made it to GSN repeats because of music issues as well (they would have packaged "stories" to quiz contestants on and all of these drew heavily from film music sources).

Yes, but remember, also, on shows with celebrities, you have to clear their appearances. This is why GSN skipped many episodes of Match Game and others.

 

[Jack P]

GSN actually didn't skip that many episodes of Match Game. The only celebrities I know of where there was a clearance problem were TPIR model Anitra Ford and Valerie Bertinelli. "Tattletales" did not get clearance from Bob Barker for episodes with his wife, while "Password Plus" ended up skipping every week from late 1981 that had one cast member from "Hill Street Blues." I think with the B/W shows the standard by this point is different. To my knowledge, no B/W shows skipped an episode due to celebrity clearance and episodes would only be skipped due to cigarette advertising on the host's podium (B/W cigarette shows did air overnight from 2001 -2004 so they did get one turn in rotation).

 

[Jack P]

Well, this series is continuing presumably with more music replacement like Volume 1.

http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Tonight-Starring-Johnny-Carson-The-Vault-Series-Vol-2/19048

Unlike Volume 1, the first show 10/23/74 would be a "new" show for those of us who have been collecting complete Tonight Shows in trade in the past, which is an awkward dilemma in regards this one for me, personally. I may for that reason only decide to get it simply because I know that unlike the shows from Volume 1 which I already had in their untampered state, this would be something I could sit through. (the 84 show I have an off-air recording of and wouldn't be new for me)

 

[FanCollector]

The order page on johnnycarson.com now has a message acknowledging the music replacement and defending their choice. You may take it as you will; it does promise that for all volumes from this point forward, the original theme music will be used.

 

[Jack P]

The thing is if they'd been upfront before the release of Volume 1, I could have been a little more forgiving. But they required us to find this out for ourselves, and that's what still ticks me off. I did not need either of those episodes from Volume 1 because I have them in their "uncut" state. I and a lot of other people could have saved our money if we'd gotten this candor ahead of time and allowed ourselves to be more judicious in making choices based on an absolute "need to have" standard because the episode in question is not among those in circulation.

I'll probably give in on this point but I'm not going to do so with any feelings of exuberant gratitude to Sotzing in the process.

 

[John Karras]

Their latest e-mail flogging Volume 2 has replaced the term "uncut" with "full shows".They have also avoided using the word "complete" anywhere in the ad. In any case, it's "no sale" for me.

 

[Jack P]

I am now willing to make an uneasy peace regarding this series of releases. First off, there is now an open admission that music has been replaced and there is now a recognition that in the future, never EVER replace the theme music with the canned version. But I also have to respect the fact that concurrent to these DVD releases is the fact that other complete shows in this format are being presented on their You Tube channel which can be downloaded for free and converted to a DVD as well. The first two are from 1981.





If more of these are made available in a way where you can get them free, I consider that a positive. As for the DVD releases, I will get them *if* they have a previously unavilable episode from the 70s (as Volume 2 does) but I plan on getting them from an Amazon market vendor and not direct from Sotzing.

 

[FanCollector]

My question is about the basis for selecting episodes for the Vault Series. The two episodes on the latest disc are both from Carson's birthday, but there isn't much else of interest. One has a funny and welcome appearance by Buddy Hackett, but nothing else stands out at all. They aren't bad episodes, but it seems amazing that these were the third and fourth episodes chosen for the series of uncut releases. The monologues are fine, but the non-Hackett interviews are pretty agonizing. Paul McCartney has nothing at all to say, and he is one of the better ones. (The edited bonus episode is actually the most fun of the three, with Carson and David Letterman teasing one another about their reclusiveness.)

 

[Jack P]

Hard to say what the reasoning is. The theme was Johnny's birthday so that was what they went with and I'm glad there's a new 70s one out but what I *really* hope we will see more of are surviving shows from the New York era. Much of the final two years in NY (1970-72) is still intact and amazingly not a lot of shows were pried out back in the day when you could order any show direct. If anything late 1973 through 1975 is the era where we have the most shows out in circulation now from the 70s (even more than the late 70s).

The obscure guests though I think add something because its a reminder of the days when the Tonight Show was not about having only A-list people to plug movies but having guests on who were interesting to talk to and it wouldn't necessarily be some whoop it up affair. That element was lost when the show was cut back to 60 minutes I feel because in the old days you could have a group of semi-regulars who would come on every six weeks or so as a back end of the show guest if there was time beacuse they were interesting conversationalists (Madlyn Rhue, from the Trek episode "Space Seed" was one such guest who appeared often during the 70s in that role).

 

[Mike Frezon]

I am now willing to make an uneasy peace regarding this series of releases. First off, there is now an open admission that music has been replaced and there is now a recognition that in the future, never EVER replace the theme music with the canned version.

Jack: Have they gone on record about other music in the broadcasts (for example, the walk-on music for guests)? I'm still smarting over the lack of Thanks for the Memories on the Bob Hope appearance in Volume 1. They worked in the replacement music very well...but instances such as that are going to stand out like a sore thumb.

 

[Jack P]

Yeah, the Carson site addressed it in one general message about how it's all the fault of the music publishers. On the 10/23/74 show I have to admit, I couldn't detect walk-on replacement music. It's a little more evident on this condensed "bonus" show from 1987 with Letterman (I hadn't realized until now that the "bonus clip" is more like a partial show of the kind that appeared in the other boxed set. This one runs 42 minutes and leaves in commercials as well and just cuts out the music guest).

Like I said, I can make peace with it now if they'll keep uploading more freebie episodes to YouTube and increase the amount of material and *if* they will make an effort to have some episodes in the future have more of the band.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Thanks, Jack.

Lets see, though.

At this roll out rate...we'll be up to Volume 10 by when? About 2022?

 

[Jack P]

Actually we've got Volume 3 on tap for next month and it promises two shows from 1975. If we end up with say, six releases next year and get a dozen more episodes or so uploaded on You Tube that won't be bad.

 

[John Karras]

But I also have to respect the fact that concurrent to these DVD releases is the fact that other complete shows in this format are being presented on their You Tube channel which can be downloaded for free and converted to a DVD as well.

Even on the Youtube ones, poor Doc and the band are chopped out of existence. The ravages of music rights.

 

[Jack P]

Three more full shows (with the same truncated music breaks; can't tell if intro music is out yet) have been posted on You Tube, all from November 1979. The third one is the famous day before Thanksgiving show when Johnny while chatting with Doc forgets about Doc's marital status leading to total hilarity.

(11/2/79)

(11/13/79)

(11/21/79)