Timber match question after Avia

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Bernie_A, Mar 1, 2004.

  1. Bernie_A

    Bernie_A Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    0
    I just calibrated my speakers (all Swans 5.2 front, C3 center and 2.1's rears) with Avia and everything is now dialed in correctly. I am a little worried about the descrepancy in the timber matching across the front. From left to center it drops about 6 on the meter and the same from right to center. Front to back there is a slight drop-off of aprox 1-1 1/2 on the meter(to be expected). Left to rights both front and back are dead on respectively. It's just the front to center to right that drops significantly. I check polarity and we're okay as well. I am using the generic monster cable from CC...fyi.

    What's an acceptable range of varience or should there be one at all.

    Ideas....comments?

    TIA
     
  2. Nathan Stohler

    Nathan Stohler Second Unit

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2004
    Messages:
    329
    Likes Received:
    0
    "timbre matching" means using a combination of speakers that have similar tonal qualities. Usually this is achieved by buying all your speakers from the same brand (and same product line), but not necessarily.

    It has nothing to do with the SPL level. A difference of 6 dB is significant, but not out of the ordinary. Just adjust the levels of your speakers on your receiver and it'll be fine.
     
  3. Bernie_A

    Bernie_A Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am going to pose this to the Swans board as well because the C3 is in theory a 5.2 layed on its side...more or less. I thinki it sounds awsome but it was just this one part of the test that kind of threw me a little. Everything else is a db or less of being equal.
     
  4. Dan Halchak

    Dan Halchak Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2003
    Messages:
    195
    Likes Received:
    0
    You should be able to get all your speakers to level out almost completely. Definitely within one DB of each other. Nathan is right though, you aren't talking about timbre matching, you're talking about SPL calibrating.
     
  5. Bernie_A

    Bernie_A Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    0
    Correct, I am talking about SPL calibrating but I thought it said something in the text about timbre matching during one of the text sequences. I've got the volumes and sub to l/c/r and rears all phase equaled. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think then one of the last things it checks for in the Verification (or something....I borrowed the software and it's not here with me) it goes through a timber matching test all the way around and the center does drop out almost 6 pts compared to the fronts and rears. Am I making sense?
     
  6. Tony Genovese

    Tony Genovese Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2000
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    0
    But once dialed in, does the tone sound match tonally between left right center and surrounds? That's what timbre is, tonal matching. They should not only sound equally loud but match tonally.
     
  7. Tim Hoover

    Tim Hoover Screenwriter

    Joined:
    May 27, 2001
    Messages:
    1,422
    Likes Received:
    0
    To again reiterate what the other posters have said, timbre matching does NOT in any way affect the volume of a particular speaker. It is purely a tonal similarity and not a level issue.

    If you're getting a 6 dB drop during your final check, then it's time to go back and recalibrate. Raise your center level up 6 dB and then check it [​IMG]
     
  8. Bernie_A

    Bernie_A Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is the weird part. All the speakers are calibrated to the same db level but when Avia did a tonal check in one of the very last steps...the center had a definite tonal difference from the left and right front. The rears had a much closer tonal similarity (almost indistinguishable) to the fronts than the center. AND, during that part of the test, the db meter dropped 6 dbs.

    I went back to the part of the calibration test and checked the volume levels and they are all the same.


    I did some research on center speakers in general and some manufactures don't intend on making a perfect tonal match and instead focus on something else....such as vocals for instance. Could this be the case here?

    After I had it all dialed in I played the opening to The Lion King on enhanced 5.1 and it was nothing short of spactacular so it sounds incredible. But, that darn part of the test is still bugging me.
     
  9. Tony Genovese

    Tony Genovese Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2000
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    0
    Timbre matching centers is very difficult. Placement differences tend to cause tonal differences. There is not much that can be done about it. Some speakers offer some level of adjustability that allows you to deemphasize the bass for instance, for a speaker that's on a shelf.
     
  10. Bernie_A

    Bernie_A Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, at this point I'm not going to worry about because overall, they sound great together.

    My neighbor has Paradigm Studio's, their center, surrounds and sub and it is incredible behind his Denon 3803. My little Velodyne CH-10 sub can't hold a candle to his sub but overall, the Swans more than hold their own behind my HK ARV-7200....I would say the P's are a tad brighter and really fill the room (even at lower db's). The Swan's are a little softer and really like to be aired out with really nice vocal brightness. I like them both (okay....the P's are a little nicer but more $$$ also..but I'll never admit that to him...ha) Some of that may be differences in the reciever, too. We both are really happy but just wait till the new SVS sub get's here.....then we'll able to keep up.

    For those of you who haven't heard either the Swans or Paradigm they are awsome for the money....

    I cannot believe how much better the system sounds after calibration, too. Don't trust your ears because my system was WAY off based on the calibration software.
     
  11. Philip>L

    Philip>L Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2003
    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    0

    Just to clarify, when you say that all the speakers are at the same dB or volume, you do mean as measured by an SPL meter at the primary viewing seat, and not that the internal settings on the pre-amp/processor are all set the same, right?
     
  12. Steve Lucas

    Steve Lucas Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2002
    Messages:
    163
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is it possible that the tweeter on your center is bad? Maybe the final tonal check uses different tones (higher frequency maybe?) than the calibration tones and the fact that the tweeter is dead could account for the loss in DB's.

    Just a thought.
    Steve
     
  13. Bernie_A

    Bernie_A Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    0
    Steve,

    I think you may be right. It just doesn't have the same high tonal value as the L and R fronts. I did it again tonight and I am almost positive that this may be the case. It's just such a hugh difference that it cannot be passed off as just a little bit....it's drastic.

    Time to contact CS for Swans to see what's up. Thanks for the input.
     
  14. Jon Lane

    Jon Lane Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2003
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Bernie,

    This one has me perplexed too. 6dB difference is WAY too much to be right, but perhaps you had a setup issue.

    As far as the C3 timbre is concerned, since your unit is a B stock, I have to wonder if it had been misused in some way. Could very well be an overloaded tweeter, because it's been perfectly timbre-matched many, many other times in similar and identical systems to your own.

    I see I now have your email and I will begin a second dialog with you today. Let's get that speaker replaced.
     
  15. Bernie_A

    Bernie_A Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh, and Philip, just to be precise,the db volumes were set using Avia and an SPL meter. So I am not refering to the volume settings in the 7200. Point well taken though...thanks.

    Thanks also to Jon Lane....once again, great CS from those him. I must have e-mailed him 20 times before my purchase. Very impressive to say the least in this world of sell it and forget it.
     
  16. Bernie_A

    Bernie_A Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    0
    Follow up: I had a friend come over and we calibrated the system one last time before sending the center back for an exchange. It was discovered that when calibrating, I had the center on large and the all the other speakers on small. This created the difference in tone. When they were all set to small, the difference in the center was almost nill. Also, I thought the speaker was blown but it was the grill rattling ever so slightly. A small piece of felt sovled that one.

    So, after all this, it was actually operator error and not the speakers. I am a very happy custome of Swans and I highly recommend them. IMO, they are worth every penny I spent and then some.
     

Share This Page