Thread from the Axiom forums, "Hsu STF-2, Hsu VTF-3, and SVS PB1+" (1 Viewer)

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>What Mark Seaton said was to check the Eq in several locations, because if you EQ with only one location in mind, you can run into problems.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

"Reviewing" a sub sans eq is really reviewing your room/sub system and is somewhat useless to everyone else. Wanting to hear the "raw" sub is akin to listening to a completely uncalibrated, out-of-the-box HT system to determine its "intrinsic capability".
This is a funny thread, as all such are.

 

[paul clipsel]

Along with yourself; Wayne, Chris and Chu have all been good in helping to explain some of the issues. I don't think its buy an eq and everything is roses, but the benefits would seem to far outweigh the negatives.

I think of this additional listeners problem much like when you walk around a room taking readings with an Spl meter (bandwidth limited) pink noise. You will get valleys and peaks as you move around taking measurements. Even slight positional changes can vary the reading significantly so using an eq to adjust for at least some of the peaks is better than doing nothing. Ultimately I guess the only way to really know whats going to happen in my room is to try it. It appears that so much of the variance depends on your room. Its much like when you first put real low bass into the room, you room takes it; or falls in a heap.

What a shame we have to have walls and ceilings.


PC

 

[CurtisSC]

I'm sure it will become the norm soon, and start to be included at lower price points as time goes on.

 

[CurtisSC]

Jack, while I think we all agree that EQing a sub has great benefits, are you saying that when comparing two subs that do not come with EQing capability, is not a good comparison?

 

[Craig Chase]

Paul... About the walls and ceilings being "too bad"... I agree... bit my wife won't let me put a theater system in the backyard...

Jack Gilvey... yes, this is pretty amusing stuff... I can alomst see you at your computer, and your BS absortion ability is finally saturated... and WHAM ! You post...

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Hah! I actually just skimmed most of it...predictable stuff.

 

[Craig Chase]

Jack...I really can spell alomist... er ... almist.... hang on... ALMOST..... phew !

 

[Craig Chase]

It is interesting that when facts were put up for all to see how all of a sudden everyone disappeared.

Jack Gilvey..... Kudos again, it seems whenever you show up, things have a way of ... cleaning up.

 

[CurtisSC]

I'm still here waiting to read something.

 

[Craig Chase]

Curtis - there are three sweeps posted, and before that a lot of discussion regarding the effect an EQ can have on a subwoofer... Jack Gilvey weighed in with his usual common sense approach, and an understanding of good engineering... and nothing. No "How can I get this to work for me?"

For example, Not picking on Curtis, but he has been toying with the idea of buying a new amp for his VTF-3... now what would be a better idea... a new amp? Or a BFD ?

I can say this... To date, the properly Eq'ed B4+ (remember, I DID take the measurements in 6 room locations... which is WHY it is not +/- 0.5 dB ... I wanted smooth response in every position) ... is the best sounding subwoofer I have ever heard in a room, anywhere.

Part of it is the design... the combo of the push-pull configuration, excellent drivers, solid engineering... etc... make up the basics..

But the $370 (total with ECM-8000 and the 2496) EQ took a really good subwoofer and made it great.

Mark Seaton could add to this... Show me any subwoofer system that can deliver 120 dB in room, from 15 Hz on up... in a 5700^3 foot room... and be +/- 2.5 dB from 16 Hz and up in 6 locations.... ALL for $4200 delivered...

Knock $400 off and take away the Behringer... and the performance drops BIG time...

I would love to hear some of Mark's installs... A ContraBass and a B4+ are pretty close in performance... and I am sure what makes his systems sound so good, is he does remove a lot of the "room" in his finishing touches...

BUT ... back even to my original statement about EQ'ing... does anyone think he could even come close to winning the $1000 ? If so... why ?

And this is not flaming... this is for fun...

 

[CurtisSC]

That is a very good question, but I got the amp already. I will probably get the EQ in the fall/winter when I have more time to play with it. Summer is extremely busy with other pleasures.

 

[Craig Chase]

Curtis... If I was not tied up in my ofice waiting for a few phone calls, I would not be typing about EQ's ... And I am sure the threads do "die off" over the summer... and will pick up in October...

By the way... The Ascends should ship today, and I also ordered a new measuring microphone recommended by David Fabrikant... accurate from 9 Hz to 30 KHz...

For two months, the Ref 3's will be disconnected... just the 170's, and Hsu subwoofers...

 

[CurtisSC]

Very cool....looking forward to your thoughts.

Care to share which microphone?

How's the golf game? I have not been able to squeeze in more golf time...but we can play year 'round here....not that it makes me a better player.

 

[Craig Chase]

If the Microphone does as well as it should, I will publicize it... probably with the review...

 

[paul clipsel]

If your comparing and listening to 2+ different uneq'ed subwoofers within the same room/position/conditions, you are still able to discern the differences and your preference. If your listening in different room/position/conditions then all bets are off as you would be getting influenced by the differences in room acoustics.

PC

 

[Craig Chase]

Paul... Unless you have figured out how to place both subwoofers in the identical postion for A/B testing... then what you just said won't work...

 

[Craig Chase]

I see, once again, nobody responded. Paul, I am not picking on you here... but look at the two sweeps from the VTF-3/2 that I posted. That was from the same subwoofer, in the same spot in the room.

The only change was in one the driver is firing down, in the other it is firing forward.

Now picture the problems associated with room placement for a comparison.

What noone wants to admit, no matter how good you think you are (this goes for me, too), you will never conduct a fair review, or casual listening test, in room, of two subwoofers without EQ... unless the room is an anechoic chamber...

 

[paul clipsel]

Craig sorry but I get busy doing other stuff (money earning) and so I am not *always* quick on following a thread. I am obviously not acoustics guru just a HT/Music listener. I have no clue why you are get this measurement variations just by changing the driver orientation. But with the length of a low bass sound waves being very long, it looks to me like something very strange is happening in your room. It doesn't happen with my room because my old CHT15 was forward and it is in the same place as the new VTF-3MK2.

I don't as a rule of thumb go to the trouble of doing blind unless its to settle a friends curiosity. So one sub go's in while the other comes out (both balanced as req). I have a pretty decent ear for sound especially any changes made to my system, although I am not musical in the slightest. I do however have a closed rectangle room so for A/B I can keep one on one side, and the other within the same acoustical spot on the other side. (mirror image)

My room was originally setup by the previous house owner for ideal stereo imaging. He had a very big set of Martin Logans. It was this special room setup and decent acoustics that convinced me to buy the house. I just turned it into multichannel room and put in a projector and rear speakers.
If you want to hear the differences between a few subs then as far as I am concerned as long as you are hearing them under the same conditions then that's fair grounds for a viable verdict. Listening to my old CHT15 made me clearly hear the difference's (within my rooms limitations). Even if an eq would have taken the room out of *play* the differences would still be proportional. If you prefer and like the speaker/sub then an eq can be added latter to help with the room.


PC

 

[ScottCHI]

what doesn't happen in your room? you measured both subs as accurately and methodically as craig? what's your point exactly?