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Those of you that use subs to listen to music... (1 Viewer)

Jonathan T

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Nov 6, 2002
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Do you guys Xover all of the information below a certain frequency and have only the sub pay it or do you run your mains full range and have your sub "bring up" the "low end"?
 

Mitch E S

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Apr 6, 2002
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No help here. I've done it both ways and don't have a preference. It really depends on your own equipment (speakers, amps, sub, prepro). I'm sure you've tried it and can't decide either. Right now I've got mine set as small crossed over at 80. It sounds damn good either way.

Mitch
 

Jonathan T

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Nov 6, 2002
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Ok, well, I've been disputing which way to set my system up and I guess I'll just take the easier route which would be to run my mins full range and have the subs bring up the low end.
 

Michael R Price

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Jonathan, what are your main speakers and how low do you think they will play? I'm just concerned that playing bass through them could distort the rest of the sound.
 

Jonathan T

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My speakers will be either HE12.1s or HE10.1s. I've got some stuff that will go down into the low 30's and probably even lower, but I just can't hear it.
 

Chris Elm

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I run my mains (klipsch rf3II) as small, along with the rest of my speakers. It is my understanding, (and you are probably well-aware), that if set to large, a full range signal will be sent to your mains, basically recognizing no sub at all except for the other speakers that you have set to small.
Since most speakers cannot play flat (+/- 3 Db) well below 50 Hz (I think most start tapering off at around 80), then I recommend you set them to small, because a sub is designed specifically for that purpose.

WIll you be using the LFE port from your reciever, or using low-level connections (if your sub supports that)?
When I had my mains set to small, I found the bass to be lacking, especially in two channel stereo mode for music.

You're mileage may vary:)
 

RichardHOS

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Mar 11, 2003
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There are several technical advantages to running your mains as "small" even if they are large floorstanding speakers.
 

Dan Hine

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Are you using a home theater receiver or stereo integrated amp (or tube preamp and amp)? Also, what sub are you using/going to use? And finally, being an HE10.1 owner, I would go with the HE12.1 towers. Likely to have a bit fuller sound with the obvious deeper extension as well. The HE10.1's are great speakers in terms of clarity and dynamics but I wouldn't use them without a sub.
 
A

Anthony_Gomez

With my mini monitors (Geoffrey Dillon's EGO's), I let them naturally roll off second order at 80hz. Then I bring in the sub to fill with a 2nd order highpass.

With my larger Usher 2-ways (Dennis Murphy's), I will leave ported and XO electronically 2nd order at 60hz, and then XO my sub into it. (this is a new speaker with a new sub, so I haven't worked out the best XO order yet....but I currently have 2nd, 3rd and 6th order electric to work with on the sub).
 

Michael R Price

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Johnathan, the Adire HE speakers can produce quite a bit of bass, but I would be concerned about setting them to large, because the really low frequency sound effects (
 

Jonathan T

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Ok, I'll probably invest in the HE12.1s then.

At first I will be using an Onkyo PL reciever. It has a "sub out" that is actually a full range output that you have to crossover seperatly. The reciever will drive the mains full range no matter what you crossover the subs at. My subs will eventuily be 2 AV-15's each in their own 4 cubic foot sealed enclosure stuffed with something like 64 ounces of poly fill and driven with 750 watts. More than able for music only purposes. Later on, when I get the money, I will invest in a seperate tube amp.

This whole setup is complicated quite a bit. As you guys have said, it is probably a better idea to xover my mains. I will be able to do this 2 ways. The Philips 963 (I will be getting it along with everything else) has bass management so I could crossover everything there, but then I'd need 2 volume controls. Or I could just build a seperate xover with a bunch of other goodies and a volume control. Futhermore, the bass won't be summed into 1 channel this way. In both cases, all of the connections, xingover, volume control and so on will be done at the line level. Sub amp will be a Samson S1500 (Very cheep power). What do you guys think?
 

Michael R Price

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Jonathan, I think it's OK to start out full range (trust me, it'll sound great!) because it would be a bit complicated to implement an active crossover. But, as Saurav and some others have reported, highpassing the Eminence woofer does make a significant improvement in the sound.
 

Jonathan T

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Nov 6, 2002
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Well, even if I do run full range, I still need something to lowpass the subs as the Samson S150 doesn't have any crossovers. Also, I'm probably gonna need phase adjustment as I will have 2 subs. Dampening adjustment would be cool, but isn't needed. Does anyone know a person I could pay to design and build me a unit that I described?
 

Michael R Price

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Those will work, but I think Parts Express has them cheaper... and you could also get a little kit from Marchand, with adjustable frequency and a steeper slope, for only a little more money.
 

BruceD

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Do you guys Xover all of the information below a certain frequency and have only the sub pay it or do you run your mains full range and have your sub "bring up" the "low end"?
One of the biggest obstacles to good integration between main speakers and subs is the implementation of the digital crossover on an HT processor.

Most of the receivers and prepros on the market were designed with an electrical high-pass @80Hz, 2nd order, 12dB/octave rolloff bass management algorithm to fit THX certified speakers.

If your speakers are anything other than THX certified (not my cup of tea) good crossover integration across the crossover boundary (between those speakers and a sub) is nearly impossible. Great musical sub integration with an HT processor's internal bass management and non-THX speakers is almost an oxymoron.

Personally, I prefer a high quality active crossover with symmetrical 24dB/octave L-R high-pass and low-pass filter slopes.

There are a number of HT processors that allow more sophisticated bass management than what I mentioned, i.e. Theta, Meridian, Lexicon to name a few.

What I'm referring to is the assumption made in the digital bass management algorithms about your speaker's low frequency rolloff characteristics.

I find it very hard to blend a speaker with a 18-36dB/octave low frequency rolloff/slope --that many ported speakers have-- plus the 12dB/octave electrical slope of the HT processor for the high-pass side of this crossover equation (equals 30-48dB/octave slope) with the low-pass side of this equation which the HT processor models on a 24dB/octave slope.

The anomolies (peaks and dips >3dB) at and around the crossover frequency described above make this setup less than desirable for a smooth main-to-sub blending for the best musical enjoyment.

My point is NOT to use a sub's internal crossover, but instead to use an active external standalone crossover (like this Marchand ) to optimize speakers, sub, and room.

To do this means re-directing all bass from Small center and Small surrounds to the main Large L&R preouts and re-directing the LFE to the main Large L&R preouts as well. Then the xover is only done once; from the Large L&R preouts to the active external crossover and then to the L&R mains and sub(s).

I find this provides the best musical optimization of a sub for 2-channel and still works great for HT. For my speakers, room and sub this happens @60Hz.

I've been doing it this way for the last 4 years.
 

Jonathan T

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Nov 6, 2002
Messages
360
Bruce D, that product you linked to is exactly what I've been looking for. Though, I still need to be able to adjust the phase and have a master volume. But I guess those would be easier to make.

The rest of your post was in intresting read. I'll keep it in mind when me or my dad decides to build a HT system.
 

Jonathan T

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Nov 6, 2002
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Well, I found 3 stepped attenuators at marchland. I also need to find a way to adjust the phase on the subs though...........
Also, after crossover, I'm gonna need to apply volume control to 4 channels of audio, before crossover, I've only have 2. The only stepped attenuator that can used with more than 2 channels cost over 300 dollars in kit form. Can I put in a stepped attenuator before crossover and phase adjustment? I don't want to pay 200 for the SVS unit that can adjust phase and I want to keep the number of components to a minumum as cables aren't cheep.
 

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