The Warner Chat 5/7: Official Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

[David Levine]

I'd say so. Get Smart has a much broader appeal that hits more demographics. Superboy is a niche show (and S1 tanked on DVD). And while Everwood has a VERY loyal following and received a lot of critical acclaim, it's fanbase is not nearly the size of the baby boomers or 30-somethings that watched Get Smart reruns for years on Nick at Night.

 

[Tory]

Warner didn't release Get Smart.

As a Blind buyer, I would prefer to get the complete series at one time in one set because it is cheaper, the best episodes are generally later than the first season but appreciation for the show is not always fully felt unless it is a whole or the experience of watching it from the start is allowed to set in. Land of the Giants is saving me a ton of money and time. Get Smart is the model to use though. Release it both complete and separate but all at the same relative time but complete first is best. Hey if some one buys just one and loves it and knows 2 is at the store as well and then three, they might just go out and grab them all while they are still thinking about it.

 

[brett tolino]

I understand your logic David.

Using THAT logic then, people can say the same about KNOTS LANDING, who has a fan base equal, if not greater than that of Get Smart.

How do I know?

Well, the show ran for 13 years, the longest of any prime time soap on television. Unsuccessful shows without a great audience generally don't run that long. It was a spin off of Dallas, one of Warner's best selling dvds which continues to release to this day.

Why then does Warner claim sales were 'soft' if the fan base didn't support the season one release? Well, as stated numerous times on this thread alone, no one knows what Warner's sales projections were. It made the top 10 sellers list at numerous well respected points of reference such as Best Buy, Amazon and Video Business.

Additionally, Warner's sales projections were most likely based on two factors:

1) Their budget costs to manufacture the release. And, this was NOT a release manufactured in economically efficent. Once again, 13 episodes spread over FIVE SINGLE SIDED disks is a bit excessive and unnecessary.

This was a release which EASILY could have been produced over two double sided disks which would have considerably lowered their cost. Lowering their cost might have also lowered their retail price. The lower the retail price, the more attractive and consumer friendly it becomes, which raises sales. Warner may claim that a release of two disks for a show may not be worth it but Sony did it for One Day at a Time. Also, they could have packaged Season One and Two together, since both seasons feature 13 episodes each. Also, Season Two brought on cast regular DONNA MILLS, a HUGE draw since many consider HER to be the show anchor, the JR of KNOTS.

2) Effectively promote and release the product to coincide with the parent series, Dallas, for maximum sales exposure. Since it is a spin off of Dallas, slug it as such on the FRONT of the package and release it the same day as Dallas so stores can display them side by side. This way, the people who buy Dallas may also buy Knots. Additionally, put a trailer in the Dallas release promoting the show to all the people who purchased Dallas.

Instead, Warner did NOT use the parent series to promote the spinoff AT ALL. But they used Knots to promote Dallas by putting a trailer for Dallas in Knots. It should have been the other way around.

I know I have said this over and over but really, it needs to be made clear to the studio that the series didn't fail in its release with consumers. The studio failed the release by charging an exuberant retail price for a small bit of product. They then claim sales were soft, which essentially states people weren't interested, which is untrue.

Fans waiting for season two shouldn't have to pay for Warners misfire -- and it really WASN'T a misfire but they believe it was and if it was, perhaps it was because they priced it way too high and did little to no promotion.

 

[David Levine]

I disagree very strongly. GET SMART has a broader audience (in age and gender) AND it has much more of a DVD buying audience. I'll be stunned if GET SMART doesn't outsell DALLAS, let alone KNOTS.

 

[whisperintherain]

Brett, I agree with all your arguments, but you need a little brush-up on your facts : KNOTS LANDING has 14 seasons, not 13, and Season 2 has precisely 18 episodes.

 

[Steve...O]

I find it incredible that so many in this thread expect studios to release product at a loss or at minimal profits rather than accept the fact their favorite shows are just not that commercially viable. That isn't real world mentality, it's fandom mentality.

Anyone with real life experience on the business side of things will tell you that Company XYZ that has $X to devote to product development is going to focus those limited resources on the products that provide the largest return on their investment. It isn't about being "greedy" it's about ensuring financial success which benefits not only the stockholders but also the employees. It also ensures that future products keep coming because the company has profits with which to invest in product development.

Some also forget that it is not only the studios that suffer when a release underperforms. Retailers are left with slow moving product taking up valuable shelf space. Of S1 of (insert show here) doesn't move many units, that retailer isn't going to order any units of S2.

There are many costs involved with bringing a release to DVD. Changing the number of discs is fairly immaterial in the grand scheme of things. The costs to prepare & convert the tapes/film to digital media, music clearances, distribution, etc. all weigh very heavily. One should not assume that the price they pay is what goes into the studio's hands. I would suspect many would be shocked to learn how little of the MSRP actually goes to the studio.

Any faulty argument in this thread is that series longetivity somehow is a barometer of success on DVD. Demographics are much more important. A series may be popular on TV, but if its fan base consists primarily of those who are not DVD buyers, it won't sell. Alternatively certain genres just don't sell well on DVD. Law & Order is currently a smash on TV, but has not been a DVD success because it has a heavy female demographic (males buy more DVD) and because hour dramas can be a tough sell.

Sorry for the long post on this and it wasn't directed at anyone in particular. It's just time for a reality check. In my opinion, if a show's fans want more seasons released, instead of berating the studio (who at least gave it a shot) why not focus those energies on getting the word out and encouraging others to buy it. Nothing speaks louder than strong sales.

Just my 2 cents.

Steve

PS - David Levine, thanks for your great post above. I believe you work for one of the independent studios (forgive me if I'm wrong on this) and your insight is always appreciated.

 

[Gary OS]

Well, I'm probably going to upset so many people with this post that no one on the boards will ever speak to me again. But I'm going to say it. Steve, I'm of two minds with what you've said. On the one hand, I do think sometimes that the studios are just a tad lazy and don't want to put any time or effort into the older classics so as to release them in a way that would bring some profit. The old adage about it being better to get some return on these old shows as opposed to them just sitting on the shelves and bringing in no return as to have some merit. And some of the shows that have been released are surely a much smaller blip on the radar than some of the other shows that haven't been released (FKB, My Three Sons, Route 66, etc). So I do have problems with studios not farming out more of these classics to other distributors if they are unwilling to take a chance themselves. Sony and WB have a great oldies catalog and it's very hard for me to believe they are just better off financially to let those series sit in vaults rotting away than they are looking for some distribution.

Having said all that (and this will be the part where a lot of people will get mad at me), I also completely understand the reality of business. And you are spot on correct, Steve, when you mention people looking at this from a fandom mindset as opposed to a business mindset. No doubt about it. It is all about the demographics. And for me, I'm not nearly as upset with the studios as I am with the general public because of that truth. As much as it disgusts me, I realize that recently aired crap will sell better than vintage TV that's been off the air for a number of years. And the studios are not to blame for that. The idiot buying public is to blame. So when I gripe and grumble about not seeing the 3rd Season of LEAVE IT TO BEAVER, I'm not so much as mad with Universal (although they are on the receiving end of some of my anger) as I am mad with the dvd buying public, which has to consist mostly of tweens and twenty-somethings that prefer filth and fluff over wholesomeness and substance. They'd rather watch a show where profanity abounds that watch a show where not one filthy word is uttered. They'd rather watch a show that glorifies teen sex than watch a show that portrays sexual innocence. They'd rather watch a show that has overblown violence than one that has powerful suspense. They'd rather watch CGI nonsense than behold the beauty of real settings/scenery. It makes me sick beyond belief at all the crap that is coming out on dvd these days, not because the studios are just picking things out of a hat, but because the buying public is so willing to eat it up. It's a sad, sad commentary on our entire society, but if I go any further I'll be pontificating.

Gary " that's my honest take on the whole thing - it's not nearly as much the fault of the studios as it is the goofballs that buy the recent crap and have no interest in the vintage material" O.

 

[David Levine]

Thanks Steve. Yeah, I'm the Senior Designer at BCI - and I also do a lot of work with our acquisitions people.

 

[Gary OS]

David, any chance BCI would pick up some of the older shows we've been mentioning. Things like FATHER KNOWS BEST, MY THREE SONS, or ROUTE 66?

And let me formally thank BCI for the great work they've done in the vintage TV department. You guys are tops in my book! Keep up the great work.

Gary "thanks for the info you've provided, David" O.

 

[David Levine]

I think FATHER KNOWS BEST is owned by Warner, and they refuse to license ANYTHING out. Not sure about the other 2. It isn't easy to get stuff from the "big guys".

 

[Gary OS]

Ah, I figured as much about it not being easy. Is that because they are looking for exorbitant figures to lease out, or simply because they want to hold on to their properties?

I thought FBK was owned by Sony, but I may be wrong.

Thanks so much for taking time out and answering my question, Mr. Levine.

Gary "I guess you had to figure the big boys would be tougher to license from" O.

 

[brett tolino]

Steve O

No one expects studios to sell or operate at a loss. However, there are much more economically efficient ways of manufacturing their product not only to lower their very high prices in what is an extremely competitive market but also to generate higher sales.

And I'm not speaking out of my @$$.

I work in manufacturing / production with a very well known, respected company that provides entertainment product for consumers. While the company is not Warner Bros dvd, you may say the division I work for is A LOT closer to them than you may think. I have been in this side of the business for over 18 years. Part of my job is to review manufacturing costs, create a budget, compare it to revenue, work with contracted vendors as well as reviewing sales projections. So, I'm speaking from experience, not ignorance. And, while the division is NOT dvd, the sensibilities are the same whether it is dvd, music, books, magazines or toys.

Whisperintherain, as for my Knots facts, you are correct. However, at the time I was posting, I just quickly went on memory.

David,

While I value your input, I beg to differ. You may believe Get Smart has a greater fan base but you're talking about a show that began airing in 1965, lasted five years and went off the air in 1970 -- that's 37 years ago. It also featured a 'somewhat' known but respected actor, Don Adams.

And pls don't take this personal for I do not mean any offense whatsoever, Knots Landing ran for 14 years, went off the air in a space of time much less than that of Get Smart but, to its credit, featured NICOLLETTE SHERIDAN as one of KNOTS PRIME PLAYERS.

NICOLLETTE SHERIDAN is NOW one of the stars CURRENTLY working in one of tv's hottest, top rated shows ON THE AIR TODAY, DESPERATE HOUSEWIVES.

Knots Landing is often billed as tv's ORIGINAL Desperate Housewives.

Desperate Housewives Sells Quite heavy in the dvd market and already outsells Get Smart. So, that tells you something about the fan base for THIS genre and the 'Potential' for Knots Landing. Also, Knots Landing featured a few seasons of Alec Baldwin, another actor CURRENTLY working (whether you like him personally or not).

So, there's MUCH more sales potential for Knots than there is for Get Smart. It features well known actors CURRENTLY working, one of whom is on tv's top rated shows. Again, Knots is billed as the Original Desperate Housewives and Desperate Housewives sells A LOT OF DVDS.

There's a LOT of cross selling / marketing potential there, much more than that of GET SMART.

If Warner isn't maximizing the 'potential' for Knots, whether its because they didn't manufacture the release efficently, because it was priced way too high for too little product OR because they're way too slow releasing seasons to captialize on the sales potential for Nicollete Sheridan -- because she wasn't added to the cast until around Season 7, that's the fault of the studio, not the fans or the consumers.

But make no mistake, the potential for Knots is much greater because it is more current (because Nicolette Sheridan is a primary player on DH, again, one of tv's hottest shows, a Knots rip off) than Get Smart.

You would tend to think Warner's would want to hurry Knots releases, if ONLY to capitalize on Nicolette Sheridan and Desperate Housewives.

 

[David Levine]

You are neglecting that GET SMART was in nearly constant reruns through the 80s and 90s. And that it is a favorite of men in their 20s through 50s.

Also it is a comedy and a parody of the spy genre - 2 categories that are much stronger sellers than Prime Time Soap Operas.

I don't disagree that KNOTS had a very strong following when it was on the air, but it isn't a fan base that is a strong DVD consumer.

 

[TravisR]

Exactly. It's not a sci-fi show (which nearly always equals devotion) or a beloved sitcom, it's a drama that the average person watched twenty years ago and those people don't care about the show beyond when they first watched it and wouldn't buy the show on DVD.

Just like in twenty years, people are not going to be buying Desperate Housewives on whatever format exists because there won't be a fanbase for it eventhough it's a big hit today.

 

[Steve...O]

Nicollette Sheridan is hardly a name that moves units strictly on her inclusion alone. She's not even someone who I'd consider a "household name" to the general public.

If the names of Mary Tyler Moore and Bob Newhart, who have very high name recognition even today and are well known across generations, can't move units of their classic and very well known shows, I fail to see how this Sheridan theory has any validity.

Manufacturing costs can be controlled, there's no doubt. But it all becomes a moot point if consumers don't respond. In the case of Knots, consumers just didn't want to buy this. David Levine laid the facts very plainly in his post. It sold less than Season 5 of Dallas.

At some point cutting the budget too much results in a cheaply made product that consumers will revolt against. Double sided discs are a great example. My theory for one of the reasons that BEAVER failed on DVD is that Universal's poor reputation on double sided discs lead consumers to not buy their products.

Get Smart is not germane to this discussion; why is it brought up so much? The demographics of Smart and Knots consumers are different as are the ownership and distribution methodologies. From all accounts, GS was a sales success. I only give major credit to the group of Smart activist fans that made this possible. Instead of moaning on message boards they made contacts in the industry, including those involved with the ownership of the show, made their case, and worked with the appropriate parties to make this happen in a way that left all parties rewarded financially and otherwise. And they didn't go cheap on the manufacturing.

Gary, great observations as always. Yes, there is some good programming on today, but the majority of it is revolting to me and the reason why I prefer to turn back the clock. I have mixed feelings on licensing. It's a good way to get things released that wouldn't ordinarily see the light of day, but these companies are at the mercy of what they are provided. This may mean unrestored prints that are possibly edited or timesped, no captions, etc. Truth be told I think the independent route is best for shows that are "privately" owned like DICK VAN DYKE or GET SMART. I'm also of the belief the market is glutted with product. There's too much stuff out there for even the most enthusiastic consumer to buy (or even afford to buy). Certain releases are just aren't going to make it.

Steve

 

[Dave Scarpa]

A Couple of Days Ago I supported Itunes with my Purchase of Season 3 of Hill Street Blues. Since Fox has let this Slip on DVD I decided to throw my Support to Digital Downloading. The Shows themslelves look fantastic on my Apple TV upconverted to 720 P , as good as the DVD's did, and guess what every episode Works because no more flippers to deal with. It might not be the Ideal Situation, but if the Invaders came out on Itunes I Would Buy them.

 

[Duane Alford]

That's awesome news. Enos is about the only Warner show left I want (unless they own any of the 10 shows that I can't find any info on who owns them). Likewise, I'd pick up the Dukes Reunion movies & the Gilligan's Island Reunion movies

 

[brett tolino]

You guys can dispute all you like but the simple truth is:

1) Desperate Housewives sells A LOT of DVDs today (who cares if it sells 20 years from now).

2) While Nicollette Sheridan may not be a household name she added to the success of Knots and adds to the success of Desperate Housewives.

3) Magazines and entertainment media bill Knots as the original Desperate Housewives.

3) Desperate Housewives sells a lot of dvds.

4) Knots may not have sold as well as Dallas Season 5 because it was priced the same with less than half the episodes --

a) $40.00 for 13 one hour episodes with no extras but a brief conversation between two of the actors.

b) Many passed because of its hefty, insane price tag.

There may be a strong desire to buy the show but people aren't idiots. The same way many people may desire an article of clothing, a tv or whatever... you can want it all you like, if its too expensive, you pass.

5) You say it sold less than Dallas but it made the top ten at Best Buy, rated high on Amazon and made the top ten at Video Business -- and that's with the overrated price tag.

Wonder what it would have sold if it was priced realistically?

The potential is there, the market is there and the cross over possibilities are there.

For the last time, if Warner is not using that potential, pricing it out of people's reach, they killed their own sales and it's not because people didn't want to buy it.

'Nuff said, rant off.

 

[David Levine]

Video Scan doesn't lie, and those Top 10 lists are relative. They are based on what else came out in the same time frame. They aren't a "Best of the Year" or "Best Ever". I'm sure KNOTS did most of it's numbers the month it came out, so it looked great for a few weeks. The sales show it hasn't maintained those numbers. And it's not a good catalog title because there isn't a continuing demand for it.

Not saying it isn't a quality show, but it isn't a strong DVD show.

 

[Duane Alford]

If Paramount is so great, where's the other 3 seasons of Have Gun Will Travel?