The Swing, Using the Manger Bending Wave Transducer.

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Brett DiMichele, Jan 14, 2003.

  1. Brett DiMichele

    Brett DiMichele Producer

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    Hello Folks,
    Ever since I ran across this driver I have been very
    fascinated by it's approach to music reproduction. The
    concept is very different from piston driven loud speakers
    and the suposed results are just as intriguing as the design
    of the driver it's self.
    I was doing some reading at Mangers web site and I see they
    are offering a new speaker that looks like it would be the
    perfect example to "Klone".
    No it won't be cheap seeing as the raw drivers are very
    expensive but being you only need 2 transducers at roughly
    $1400.00 this could come out more affordable than some
    complec M-T-M designs using the best Scan-Speak has to offer.
    The other great thing about this driver is it's broadband
    approach and simplistic crossover needs. You only need to
    cross it over on the low side, the driver it's self can
    produce from 100Hz up to 35Khz (-10Db @ 32Khz) it's -3Db
    from 100hz to 25Khz.
    Impliment this with a musical subwoofer and it should provide
    stellar results. Every review I have read from regular
    users to Professors in Music Universities and from HiFi
    mags have good things to say about the product and the
    contruction is solid to say the least.
    So chime in and tell me what you think? It's untraditional
    for sure.
    Here is an image of the Swing enclosure. I am going to
    get in contact with Manger and see if I can get the exact
    measurements and design of the Swing's cabinent.
    [​IMG]
    Here is a plot of the Frequency Response of the Swing:
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Brett DiMichele

    Brett DiMichele Producer

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    Followup..

    I was sitting here pondering the cabinent design of the
    Swing and wondering what Manger means when they say the
    cabinent has an internal chamber that is "Floating"

    I gather they mean a cabinent within a cabinent seperated
    by some sort of elastic decoupling compound (could be
    something as simple as acoustical asphalt tiles or perhaps
    silicon)

    The other thing is that the side of the enclosure would be
    fairly simple dual arc cuts and the face and rear would be
    straight pannels but they need to be formed into the swing
    of the arc..

    Can MDF or HDF be steamed and formed or can it slowly be
    cold bent? Or would a more suitable material for the front
    and back be some sort of birch ply that can be dry formed
    in a press.
     
  3. Pete Mazz

    Pete Mazz Supporting Actor

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    They said that the front baffle is floating, or decoupled from the rest of the enclosure. They say the enclosure is double walled construction, which makes sense for a curved box. You have to use thinner material in order for it to bend, although there are other ways to do it, of course.

    I'd love to get my hands on some of the drivers, too. Price is the deciding factor, tho. You can get a lot for those kinds of bucks....

    Pete
     
  4. Brett DiMichele

    Brett DiMichele Producer

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    Yeah true you can get a lot for those kind of bucks but
    can you get that type of performance?

    It may all be hogwash and I guess the only way I will ever
    know is to take the plunge and purchase a pair. But if the
    cold hard data is any reflection of the real world performance
    and if what the reviewers have said is true, then it should
    be a worth while product.

    Could you get similar performance for less money? I am sure
    you probably could get close.. But the issues of seperate
    drivers will always be there.

    The front of the enclosure is decoupled, it's just a
    decorative front that is removeable (the same with thier sub
    woofer also)

    Perhaps they used 2 thinner layers for easier moldability
    but I am fairly certain you can bend certain woods even if
    fairly thick (like Birch)

    Well I am going to start socking away some cash and with the
    tax return should have enough to get the drivers. I need to
    get in touch with Manger and get the X-O Schematic they
    help out the DIY people as much as they can from what I have
    seen thus far..

    Thier $14,000.00 "ZeroBox" series is available in plan form
    so I would imagine they will help me out with some dimensions
    for the enclosure and design of the Swing's and the X-O's.
     
  5. Brian Foley

    Brian Foley Agent

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    I've seen those pictures, and I agree that it's a very cool design. I love the solid rosewood (cocobolo?) baffle.

    My guess is that there is some kind of gasket between the baffle and the box behind, and that the baffle is attached with some kind of mechanical fastener in such a way that a bit of lateral movement is allowed. That would permit the baffle to expand and contract without cracking the box and while maintaining a seal.

    I've never heard anything that uses the Manger, but Andre at E-Speakers.com, who sells them, swears that they give the most accurate sound reproduction he has heard.
     
  6. ThomasW

    ThomasW Cinematographer

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    It's certainly not a 'fullrange' driver. It's rolling off @150Hz. The top end starts rolling off at 10K. Yes there will be some room gain in the bottom. But the driver's not big enough to move much air.

    Since Andre sells it I'm sure it sounds good in the right circumstances, = small room, fairly close listening position, and a not too demanding bass, etc.

    Serious designs using Mangers have 2 or 3 drivers with XO's.

    As long as these have been around, if this were the 'holy grail', everyone would be making a similar driver.
     
  7. Brett DiMichele

    Brett DiMichele Producer

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    Tom,
    They will be used in a 13.5' x 16' x 8' celing room.
    Listening position will be 9' or so away from the cabinents.
    Full range isn't an accurate representation I suppose that
    "broad band" would be more accurate of a description.
    These will be used with a sub crossed at 100Hz.
    If these were going to be used in a larger listening room
    then one of the ZeroBox designs (more drivers, more complicated)
    would be more suitable I would think.
    Is there a such thing as a "Holly Grail" ? No.. But on paper
    these do show to have some great advantages over dynamic
    loud speakers, instintanious impulse response very fast
    transient times broad spectrum coverage etc.
    But again they aren't cheap either, far more than even the
    most expensive Scan-Speak drivers cost. They look like they
    are well manufactured and are rebuildable which is a nice
    feature considering the price. [​IMG]
     
  8. Scott Pultz

    Scott Pultz Auditioning

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    I'm interested in these drivers myself but am yet to hear them. Not a lot to find out on the net either [​IMG]
     
  9. Brett DiMichele

    Brett DiMichele Producer

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    Brian,
    The Baffle sits in a groove in the marble or slate base
    unit. It is kept away from the actual enclosure by some
    means.
    Nothing is set in stone there are numerous ways to keep
    the baffle isolated from the enclosure it's self.
    I love the design of this enclosure it's elegant it's
    very minimalistic.
    I think I will make some "Modifications" though. I love
    the exotic wood baffels that will stay for sure, and the
    marble base is a must also, but the actual enclosure, I
    think I will finish in real 30 ounce woven carbon fiber and
    resin.
    I think the Hi Tech looks of CF will compliment the natural
    wood and marble que's nicely. Plus I could use thinner
    materials to make the inner and outer enclosure and as long
    as they are isolated well from eachother (a layer of V-Blok
    between the walls) the CF will finish it off into one nearly
    indestructible unit [​IMG]
     
  10. ThomasW

    ThomasW Cinematographer

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    Brett
    If that FR plot is accurate then the XO point needs to be ~200Hz, not 100Hz. That means a woofer in addition to a sub.
     
  11. Brett DiMichele

    Brett DiMichele Producer

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    Tom,

    ROTFLOL what the hell does that mumbo jumbo mean?

    The angle of the dangle is proportionate to the swing of
    the thing? LOL

    As for the FR Plot, I believe thats anechoic but they say
    it's 100Hz to 25Khz -3Db

    I don't see how they could market the Swing with no mid
    woof and say you need to add a sub, if it had to be crossed
    at 200hz?

    I want to build it just like they show it.. 2 transducers
    and my sub nothing more..

    If I start getting into multiple driver arrays then that
    defeats the point of even having this driver and in which
    case I would just go with a T-M in a tower enclosure.

    Ohh hey while I have your attention...

    Have you ever seen the Focal speakers that run all Focal
    Drivers Infinate Baffle?

    I saw these on ebay one time it was suposedly made by JM
    Labs and it was just all open air.. The Mids were open..
    It was all just in a open Baffle.. Does that work? (Aparently it does...)
     
  12. Brett DiMichele

    Brett DiMichele Producer

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    *Update*

    I received this email from Manger this morning..

    "Dear Brett,
    thank you for your email. Sorry to tell you that we don't talk about the details of the Swing speaker. It is only available as a finished speaker. Best regards, Daniela Manger"


    I can understand thier point... They list the dimensions
    of the cabinent on the web site so I guess the Kloning
    procedure would just be to figure out the enclosure volume
    by using the drivers white papers and to figure out the
    best low pass X-O approach..
     
  13. Brett DiMichele

    Brett DiMichele Producer

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    Tom,
    It looks like (as usual) you'r right! [​IMG]
    Here is what Daniela has to say...
    "thank you for your understanding.
    You will find more information attached. The Swing has a 12dB high pass, crossover point is 140 - 160 Hz. Lower is not recommended. e-speakers is our US dsitributor, you can find the prices at www.e-speakers.com"
    And she sent me the recomended cabinent volumes. Here is
    some of the data from that white paper.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Instructions for use of the Manger® Sound Transducer (MSW)
    • MSW Cabinet Volume
    For one MSW, the volume should not be less than 8 litres as the volume of air otherwise affects the
    movement of the MSW diaphragm and the built-in resonance frequency rises continuously. A net
    volume of between 14 and 20 litres is adequate when using three MSWs.
    • MSW Cross-Over Frequency
    We recommend a cross-over frequency of between 150 and 170 Hz.
    • MSW Thiele-Small Parameters
    The Thiele-Small parameters (TSP) can be found on another sheet. Their range of application is,
    however, extremely limited due to the TSP cone specification. Above 150 Hz, the MSW is a bending
    wave radiator, below its response is similar to that of mass and spring systems (fs = 75 Hz). We
    suggest don't using the TSP for calculations.
    • MSW Resonance Equalisation and Damping
    Electrical resonance equalisation is advantageous to the MSW. With the high pass as voltage divider,
    this electrical damping takes effect direct at the drive. Damping via the mechanical and pneumatic
    parameters of the diaphragm, i.e. damping is unwanted. This renders negative changes in the lower
    mid-range inevitable. The rear air passages of the front mounted MSW must not be damped by a high
    flow resistance in the distance range of around 6 cm. (see Zerobox suggestion)
    • MSW Filter
    A 6dB high pass filter is most suitable for the MSW. The electrical limit frequency for the high pass is
    approximately 350 Hz. Due to its construction principle, the MSW tends to rise to lower frequencies
    in the sound pressure level, so that linearisation is initially effected with the 6 dB high pass filter. The
    actual cross-over to the woofer therefore takes place at around 140 - 170 Hz.
    • Woofer
    Woofers should have an upper cut-off frequency of around 800 Hz; the ideal case is when no partial
    oscillations occur above that frequency. The low pass ought to have a slope of 18 dB and be
    connected in reverse. This should always be checked during assembly with a battery.
    • MSW Amplifier
    In theory, a 10-fold rise time in the amplifier is necessary in order to achieve undistorted signal
    transmission. For the MSW with a rice time of 13 µs, the amplifier should have a rise time of 1.3 µs or
    less. "Fast" amplifiers, e.g. MOSFET, with a cut-off frequency of fg> 150 kHz meet this requirement. If
    necessary, the radio frequency filter (RF-filter) at the amplifier input should be modified. Musical
    dynamics, can be enjoyed to full advantage via the MSW with high amplifier voltage peaks. A ratio
    between continuous tone output and peak voltage output (
     
  14. ThomasW

    ThomasW Cinematographer

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    No I'm not familar with the Focal array, but virtually any driver can be used IB/dipole.

    The reason I posted the quote is that it is 'mumbo-jumbo' = pseudo-science.

    Understand that many so called 'purests' will put up with limited 'fullrange' performance to avoid XO's. As far as I'm concerned that's folly. But to each their own.

    Interesting info from them.....

    My approach to drivers is that they should have adequate output to one octave below the XO point. That's eliminates any potential holes in the FR.

    If Manger recommends 150-170Hz, then I'd use ~250Hz or higher as the XO point. One doesn't want to run a sub that high, so a woofer is needed. This is one reason why people are using several of the Mangers with XO's.

    IMO it's an interesting driver but not very practical unless one has bucks to burn and want's something to 'play' with.
     
  15. Brett DiMichele

    Brett DiMichele Producer

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    Tom,
    Hrmphh...
    Point WELL Taken! [​IMG]
    *Kicks Ground* well a couple of Mangers per cabinent
    ain't happening.. I can see $1400.00 for two drivers but
    I can't see spending double that to run 2 per cabinent
    and have to mate it to a good set of woofers as well.
    *grumbles*
    Well it's a good thing I don't plan on doing anything right
    away.. I certainly need to think over what it is I want and
    what I am willing to spend..
    I know what I want.. I want to be absolutely FLOORED when
    they are plugged in, burnt in and playing some reference
    material...
    And everything that I think would floor me is shall we say
    complicated...
    I dunno.... I can see this is going to take much more
    thought..
     
  16. Hank Frankenberg

    Hank Frankenberg Cinematographer

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    Brett, your commendably humble attitude in listening to Tom's advice will save your money. Tom and Jon have built some line arrays and an IB and Jon is about to start on a new line using BG Rd-50's and stacks of mind-woofs. I'm fairly certain that the mid-hf transparency of the ribbons and the low distortion of the stacks of mid-woofs operating with low excursion will "floor" you. You might want to follow the project to see if such a design is for you.
     
  17. Brett DiMichele

    Brett DiMichele Producer

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    Hank,
    I have looked into Transmission Line's and even Ribbons
    merged with high quality lows..
    Nothing is set in stone, I was really interested in the
    Bending Wave...
    But I am open to anything.. I guess I need to establish
    "how much" am I willing to go.. I want to use a proven
    (by someone that knows what the hell they are doing.. Like
    Tom..) design.. Something where I can go okay these are the
    dimensions, this is the part number, this is the price and
    fire it together [​IMG]
     
  18. Hank Frankenberg

    Hank Frankenberg Cinematographer

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    Bingo - establish your budget, then go for the best design that fits. I think Jon's upcoming line array may fit. I've been discusssing/following the pre-design process and I think it'll be a winner. Check out Jon and Tom's other stuff also.
     
  19. Stephen Dodds

    Stephen Dodds Second Unit

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    Linkwitz style open baffle speakers 'floored' me. You may want to consider them as well.

    Steve
     
  20. Dennis XYZ

    Dennis XYZ Stunt Coordinator

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    The Mangers are interesting drivers but a couple of points need to be raised.
    First, all the 'official' frequency response plots are measured directly on axis. You will never see an off-axis plot from Manger. I asked Andre about that over on the Mad board. He chose not to answer but some others did and said they measure terrible off axis.
    Second, they have a very small Xmax so, while they may play a 150 Hz tone, they won't do it very loud.
    Still, Andre says he loves the sound. I think they would work best as nearfield monitors, 4 or 5 feet away, aimed straight at your ears. They might be very good for that purpose. The small Xmax and bad off-axis power response would make them unsuitable for a 'big' sound in a big room.
    Edit: I think Andre has some Manger box and crossover plans at http://www.e-speakers.com/ .
     

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