A Few Words About The Searchers in 4k UHD (1 Viewer)

[dpippel]

Unbelievably, my setup is absolutely identical to Robert's except for the display. I have a 77" LG G3 (previous model year to his G4), but the same receiver and disc players, all connected the same way. At any rate, I'm not hearing this audio problem in my system either.

 

[Josh Dial]

In my set-up a Panasonic DP-UB150 4K UHD Blu-ray disc player is connected directly to a Sony Bravia KD-75X8000G, which is connected directly to a Samsung HW-Q950T Soundbar, all via HDMI cables and no processors or AVRs in between. I also tested the new Blu-ray in this set on the above Panasonic 4K disc player and on a Sony BDP-BX370 (non 4K) Blu-ray disc player by simply switching out the HDMI connection at the back of the player from one to the other.

My bet is on the soundbar introducing some delay. Even though you note that you tried it with the TV speakers (if I'm understanding you correctly), I suggest disconnecting the device. Something might be happening on the path from the TV to the soundbar (perhaps related to the audio return, which I assume you are using).

 

[Cineman]

My bet is on the soundbar introducing some delay. Even though you note that you tried it with the TV speakers (if I'm understanding you correctly), I suggest disconnecting the device. Something might be happening on the path from the TV to the soundbar (perhaps related to the audio return, which I assume you are using).

Yes, I have tried deactivating the soundbar and only using the TV speakers. And I have tried playing the movie with the disc player connected directly to the TV without the soundbar or anything else in the pathway.

Bear in mind, I don't see the image of the Warner Bros. logo fading in without so much as a nanosecond of music soundtrack playing in sync with it. Perhaps I have not explained this well; I don't see the WB logo fading in with any delay in the sound at all. The image begins instantly "at the start of the disc" just as surely as the sound begins at exactly the same time.

The problem is "at the start of the disc" whether by hitting the Play button or choosing Chapter one or rewinding the disc, the fade in on the WB logo and therefore that first note of the music has already commenced. Possibly by no more than 2-3 frames of what would have been the original film. I really don't know. I only know there is no black leader and the fade in is already happening.

In the particular case of this movie, the way the WB logo begins to fade in precisely as the downbeat of the first note happens, catching it fading in late by even a single frame or two misses the downbeat of that first note. I still hear that first note as others have said or suggested they hear it. But not the downbeat on it because that happened a nanosecond before the picture and sound on these new discs begin.

This is not a phenomenon I have observed or heard on this same equipment and set up with any other movie disc as long as the first thing I see after hitting Play is 1-2 seconds of black leader and not the movie having begun already. And it is definitely not something I see, hear, feel or percieve on any previous home video or theatrical screening of The Searchers.

Frankly, I am a bit puzzled that no one else has heard and felt the difference in the audio and emotional impact of the downbeat of the first note in the music soundtrack when they do an A-B comparison between either or both of the previous Blu-ray versions (which clearly and blessedly show at least 1-2 seconds of black leader and silence before the movie begins) vs the 4K and the new Blu-ray version in this set.

To my ears the difference is somewhere between noticable and stark. So that is why I wish they had made sure there was at least 1-2 seconds of black leader before the movie begins in this new set as had been done with every previous home video and theatrical presentation I have ever watched.

Still, I suppose it could be that both my Panasonic and Sony disc players are simply not starting this or any other movie disc I own precisely at the beginning and that I have only noticed it on these new discs of The Searchers because whatever black leader had ever existed in any previous version has now been cut so unforgiving close to the first frame of the movie.

 

[Josh Dial]

Yes, I have tried deactivating the soundbar and only using the TV speakers. And I have tried playing the movie with the disc player connected directly to the TV without the soundbar or anything else in the pathway.

Interesting. Thanks for the update and the extra info.

Given you've tried the most direct path possible the best three answers are an HDMI handshake issue, a scratch, and a unique or semi-unique glitch. I'm leaning toward the HDMI handshake issue now (which is unfortunately the root of most problems).

For what it's worth, I have one disc in my collection (Criterion's Bringing Up Baby blu-ray) where the audio is out of sync with the video (resulting in the dreaded lipsync issue) no matter what I do. From what I can tell nobody else has this issue. It's isolated to my disc. When I play it on my Panasonic UB9000 it get the sync issue. When I play it on my PS3 it's perfect. I fiddled with various settings and removing and adding devices along the path and nothing fixed it. I called it a glitch and simply played it with my PS3.

Sorry you have this issue. It would drive me crazy!

 

[Robert Harris]

I believe the upshot of this entire discussion is that there should be several moments of black before an image to allow for multiple handshakes.

 

[compson]

^^^
Sounds like a handshake issue to me. If you have player settings (such as resolution) on Auto that can be changed to the correct specific setting, you might try that. It’s possible the Auto detection is triggered when you change from the disc menu to the movie and causes a very slight delay. Just guessing.

 

[pjones]

Frankly, I am a bit puzzled that no one else has heard and felt the difference in the audio and emotional impact of the downbeat of the first note in the music soundtrack when they do an A-B comparison between either or both of the previous Blu-ray versions (which clearly and blessedly show at least 1-2 seconds of black leader and silence before the movie begins) vs the 4K and the new Blu-ray version in this set.

I do, for sure, with the UHD—but this is a phenomenon that I encounter on a quite a few titles with my system, because my video pipeline, as intentionally configured (from player, in "source direct" mode, through video processor to projector), produces at least a short video/audio blackout during any source format change.

In the case of The Searchers UHD, the video format change appears to be between Dolby Vision and non-DV HDR: upon starting the disc, the initial WB logo is DV; but the main menu screen is non-DV; so upon selecting PLAY, it has to switch back to DV again for the film, and the resulting blackout causes me to miss seeing/hearing the beginning fade and note.

Needless to say, I find this phenomenon annoying for any title with which it happens for me, so sometimes when preparing for a formal viewing, I'll try to set things up beforehand by (1) making sure that audio is muted, (2) starting to play the film, (3) pressing previous chapter and immediately pressing pause, (4) unmuting the audio, and finally, when everyone is ready to start for real, (5) pressing play. With my Oppo UDP-203 at least, the (3) sequence will leave it paused at the first frame of the chapter/title, usually black, with the correct video format thus ready to go—does that combination help with your player? (This preparation can also help avoid others having to watch or hear annoying menu visuals or audio, for what that's worth too.)

Unlike you, with my system, I don't miss any of the fade-in/score with the new Blu-ray of The Searchers, because the video format is unchanged (1080p 23.98Hz SDR/709) throughout the WB logo, menu, and main title (I hear the "downbeat" start right before I see any of the brick wall fading in). But indeed there isn't the 2.5 seconds of black as there was with the old Blu-ray. I would appreciate it if normal practice were to have a few seconds of black at the start of the main title as RAH suggests above.

 

[Cineman]

I do, for sure, with the UHD—but this is a phenomenon that I encounter on a quite a few titles with my system, because my video pipeline, as intentionally configured (from player, in "source direct" mode, through video processor to projector), produces at least a short video/audio blackout during any source format change.

In the case of The Searchers UHD, the video format change appears to be between Dolby Vision and non-DV HDR: upon starting the disc, the initial WB logo is DV; but the main menu screen is non-DV; so upon selecting PLAY, it has to switch back to DV again for the film, and the resulting blackout causes me to miss seeing/hearing the beginning fade and note.

Needless to say, I find this phenomenon annoying for any title with which it happens for me, so sometimes when preparing for a formal viewing, I'll try to set things up beforehand by (1) making sure that audio is muted, (2) starting to play the film, (3) pressing previous chapter and immediately pressing pause, (4) unmuting the audio, and finally, when everyone is ready to start for real, (5) pressing play. With my Oppo UDP-203 at least, the (3) sequence will leave it paused at the first frame of the chapter/title, usually black, with the correct video format thus ready to go—does that combination help with your player? (This preparation can also help avoid others having to watch or hear annoying menu visuals or audio, for what that's worth too.)

Unlike you, with my system, I don't miss any of the fade-in/score with the new Blu-ray of The Searchers, because the video format is unchanged (1080p 23.98Hz SDR/709) throughout the WB logo, menu, and main title (I hear the "downbeat" start right before I see any of the brick wall fading in). But indeed there isn't the 2.5 seconds of black as there was with the old Blu-ray. I would appreciate it if normal practice were to have a few seconds of black at the start of the main title as RAH suggests above.

Thank you and everyone who responded (and might still respond) to this issue!

I tried your method with the 4K UHD disc but there was no change in the fact that the first note of the soundtrack has already commented after the (5) pressing play after everything is ready step.

One possible reason I don't get the same result you get from that method is because hitting Pause immediately after selecting and hitting Chapter One in the menu on my Panasonic 4K player does not pause the movie. I can only pause the movie after the Chapter actually begins to play. Which naturally means releasing pause at that point causes the movie to start even later no matter how quickly I hit Pause after it starts playing. And, of course, that is the way that Panasonic 4K disc player behaves with the Blu-ray disc as well.

I only have that one 4K disc player and the same inability to Pause immediately after selecting and hitting Chapter One but only being able to pause it after the movie begins to play at that chapter exists on that player for Blu-rays as well as 4K discs. So I tested the method with the new Blu-ray disc on my Sony (non 4K) Blu-ray disc player. And that player does allow me to Pause immediately after selecting and hitting Chapter One.

Unfortunately, the result was still that the movie image and soundtrack had already commenced ever so slightly but noticably on the Blu-ray with that player too.

Not surprisingly, I concur with your and Mr. Harris' conclusion that just 2 seconds or so of black leader on the 4K and this new Blu-ray disc, as exists on the previous versions, would have solved or averted any of the potential issues some of us might experience with various players' handling of that synchronized picture and sound beginning of the movie.

Otherwise, everything about the 4k UHD version is to my eyes and ears superior to all previous home video versions I have watched.

 

[pjones]

One possible reason I don't get the same result you get from that method is because hitting Pause immediately after selecting and hitting Chapter One in the menu on my Panasonic 4K player does not pause the movie. I can only pause the movie after the Chapter actually begins to play. Which naturally means releasing pause at that point causes the movie to start even later no matter how quickly I hit Pause after it starts playing. And, of course, that is the way that Panasonic 4K disc player behaves with the Blu-ray disc as well.

Got it. Too bad that the Panasonic doesn't let you queue up the pause upon arrival at the selected chapter.

I only have that one 4K disc player and the same inability to Pause immediately after selecting and hitting Chapter One but only being able to pause it after the movie begins to play at that chapter exists on that player for Blu-rays as well as 4K discs. So I tested the method with the new Blu-ray disc on my Sony (non 4K) Blu-ray disc player. And that player does allow me to Pause immediately after selecting and hitting Chapter One.

Unfortunately, the result was still that the movie image and soundtrack had already commenced ever so slightly but noticably on the Blu-ray with that player too.

Given that you see this with the new Blu-ray (which should avoid my video format change issue) and with different makes of player—just grasping here—I wonder if the discontinuity in the source DTS audio stream, when either going from the menu to the title, or seeking chapters within the title, leads to a slight audio dropout on stream restart in your system. Haven't thought much how to test this, but wondering if you get any similar feel from other chapter skips. But we probably shouldn't derail this thread much further with debugging of this, other than to lament the reduction of black leader for this release.

 

[Douglas R]

Thank you and everyone who responded (and might still respond) to this issue!

I tried your method with the 4K UHD disc but there was no change in the fact that the first note of the soundtrack has already commented after the (5) pressing play after everything is ready step.

One possible reason I don't get the same result you get from that method is because hitting Pause immediately after selecting and hitting Chapter One in the menu on my Panasonic 4K player does not pause the movie. I can only pause the movie after the Chapter actually begins to play. Which naturally means releasing pause at that point causes the movie to start even later no matter how quickly I hit Pause after it starts playing. And, of course, that is the way that Panasonic 4K disc player behaves with the Blu-ray disc as well.

I only have that one 4K disc player and the same inability to Pause immediately after selecting and hitting Chapter One but only being able to pause it after the movie begins to play at that chapter exists on that player for Blu-rays as well as 4K discs. So I tested the method with the new Blu-ray disc on my Sony (non 4K) Blu-ray disc player. And that player does allow me to Pause immediately after selecting and hitting Chapter One.

Unfortunately, the result was still that the movie image and soundtrack had already commenced ever so slightly but noticably on the Blu-ray with that player too.

Not surprisingly, I concur with your and Mr. Harris' conclusion that just 2 seconds or so of black leader on the 4K and this new Blu-ray disc, as exists on the previous versions, would have solved or averted any of the potential issues some of us might experience with various players' handling of that synchronized picture and sound beginning of the movie.

Otherwise, everything about the 4k UHD version is to my eyes and ears superior to all previous home video versions I have watched.

I thought I'd have another closer look at my discs. As you say, on the old Blu-ray, following several seconds of black picture, the music (downbeat) begins exactly in sync with the beginning fade-in of the Warner Bros logo. I now notice that on the 4K and new Blu-ray, there is perhaps half a second or less of black before the logo fades in, However the music (downbeat) is heard very slightly before the fade-in begins. Although slight, there is a definite difference. Are you seeing that slight, maybe half a second, black screen before the logo fade-in?

 

[Mrozsa]

I don't want to derail this thread but I am keen to find out more about the 'dreaded lip sync issue' mentioned by Josh Dial above. It's a problem that's been driving me crazy and it would be very helpful if someone could direct me to a thread on the subject or could perhaps suggest an area where I could start a thread myself. Thanks.

 

[cda1143]

I don't want to derail this thread but I am keen to find out more about the 'dreaded lip sync issue' mentioned by Josh Dial above. It's a problem that's been driving me crazy and it would be very helpful if someone could direct me to a thread on the subject or could perhaps suggest an area where I could start a thread myself. Thanks.

Do you have it on the same disc - Bringing Up Baby?

 

[mskaye]

I don't want to derail this thread but I am keen to find out more about the 'dreaded lip sync issue' mentioned by Josh Dial above. It's a problem that's been driving me crazy and it would be very helpful if someone could direct me to a thread on the subject or could perhaps suggest an area where I could start a thread myself. Thanks.

I was getting the lip sync issue intermittently. Searched around found this and that fixed the issue. Forgive me if this is off target. My system is not complex.

 

[Cineman]

I thought I'd have another closer look at my discs. As you say, on the old Blu-ray, following several seconds of black picture, the music (downbeat) begins exactly in sync with the beginning fade-in of the Warner Bros logo. I now notice that on the 4K and new Blu-ray, there is perhaps half a second or less of black before the logo fades in, However the music (downbeat) is heard very slightly before the fade-in begins. Although slight, there is a definite difference. Are you seeing that slight, maybe half a second, black screen before the logo fade-in?

To answer your question, in my case I am not seeing any black before the fade in of the Warner Bros. logo along with the downbeat of the music on my Panasonic 4K disc player with either disc. Or, at least, no black that is distinguishable from an instant of black that would occur between going from the Menu or making a Chapter selection to play the disc or rewinding to the beginning before playing it. Although I do think I might have seen it just the one time during a previous test, as I mentioned before, but that impression has never been repeated.

However, with that player I cannot hit Play and immediately hit Pause to see if anything like that is actually on the disc. On that player I can only Pause a movie after the movie is already playing.

Now, I can hit Pause immediately after selecting a Chapter or rewinding to the beginning of the disc on my Sony Blu-ray disc player. But since it is not a 4K disc player I can only do that with the new Blu-ray.

And on the Blu-ray, pausing it that way does produce perhaps a single still frame of black. However, I can't say if the music downbeat is or could ever be audible "at the start of the movie" after hitting Play using that method because using that method still requires at least a nanosecond for the sound to kick in for this disc the same as happens with any other disc I play in that player. And that nanosecond of transition is plenty big enough to cover over and obscure whatever is actually going on audibly with the movie in that instant.

Therefore, I can't say whether or not there is a first downbeat for the music present in that nanosecond that could be heard but can only say that by the time I do hear music that first note has already commenced just past the downbeat.

 

[Mrozsa]

I was getting the lip sync issue intermittently. Searched around found this and that fixed the issue. Forgive me if this is off target. My system is not complex. View attachment 243381

Thanks for the replies to my lip sync enquiry. No I don’t have Bringing Up Baby but the problem occurs on most blu-rays and, intermittently, 4K but not, strangely, on DVD. I’ll look into the Panasonic suggestion although the problem is on my projection system, not my tv which plays fine. But again I should try to find a technical thread before I go into greater detail. Thanks again.

 

[Robert Harris]

It’s interesting that there has been no mention of Antonio Moreno’s appearance in The Searchers - one of the finest silent film stars.

For those who have never seen his work in The Trail of the Lonesome Pine, best to grab a copy.

 

[Robert Crawford]

It’s interesting that there has been no mention of Antonio Moreno’s appearance in The Searchers - one of the finest silent film stars.

For those who have never seen his work in The Trail of the Lonesome Pine, best to grab a copy.

In fairness, Moreno was only in the movie for a couple of sequences. I’ll always remember his line about blood money in the film.

I thought that 1923 film version of The Trail of the Lonesome Pine is a lost film?

 

[sbjork]

I believe the upshot of this entire discussion is that there should be several moments of black before an image to allow for multiple handshakes.

 

[The Killer Meteor]

You'll be pleased to learn that the 4K disc presents the images in sharper focus than the included Blu-ray disc. It's a definite uptick. My memory of the discussion of the earlier disc was that the long banned Richard was as critical as you were and far more virulent too! (I miss his contributions and I'm sorry he got banned)

He's ranting about the new transfer being too orange on a different forum!

 

[Robin9]

He's ranting about the new transfer being too orange on a different forum!

Ah! I wasn't aware he'd found a new home. I assume "a different forum" is that different forum?