Pre-Order The Sea Chase (1955) (Blu-ray) Available for Preorder (1 Viewer)

[Ronald Epstein]

The link below will take you directly to the product on Amazon. If you are using an adblocker you will not see link.

 

[jim_falconer]

woohoo...ordered!!

 

[ahollis]

Also done!

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Are both these Wayne titles RCR?

 

[Rodney]

Are both these Wayne titles RCR?

I don't know if they are considered RCR or not, but I do know since they are John Wayne films both Crawdaddy and I will be getting them.

From the Blood Alley thread:

Yeah, I'll be buying this release along with The Sea Chase. With that said, Warner needs to release 3 Godfathers this Christmas season. If they do that, I can die a happy man.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Are both these Wayne titles RCR?

Not quite, but I'll buy any title to support more Wayne films being released on Blu-ray.

 

[John Hermes]

Not quite, but I'll buy any title to support more Wayne films being released on Blu-ray.

Yeah, me too, Maybe someday Paramount will get on board.

 

[jim_falconer]

Looks like the price of this has dropped a few bucks, and the release date has been moved up (happy on both counts)...

 

[Robert Harris]

Haven't had a chance to do formal few words, but for those pre-ordering, may move forward without fear.

Lovely image harvests from beautifully produced IPs, and 2-track encoded stereo, derived from original stereo mag prints.

Wonderful Blu-rays!

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Just out of curiosity (and this is by no means a complaint), how much effort/cost would it have been for Warner to have decoded the stereo tracks on their end?

 

[Stephen PI]

Just out of curiosity (and this is by no means a complaint), how much effort/cost would it have been for Warner to have decoded the stereo tracks on their end?

I think there is some confusion or misunderstanding here.
The two-track that is apparently on the new release is not representative of what was on the original magnetic master, either a print or fullcoat original.
Two- track was never a standard theatrical format before Dolby's two-track format was introduced around '77.
The two-track was created from the 'discrete' master (not discreet!) for cable, VHS and laserdisc before multi-track technology became available.
Warner, apparently, on this title, are not going to access any surviving 4-track stereo print or fullcoat master. They are just using the mix-down made from the 4-track which is on the HD master.
Warner won't do any decoding, the consumer will.
I don't know if there was a surround track on this film or if it was just LCR, so I don't know what kind of encode the two-track is.

 

[Robert Harris]

I think there is some confusion or misunderstanding here.
The two-track that is apparently on the new release is not representative of what was on the original magnetic master, either a print or fullcoat original.
Two- track was never a standard theatrical format before Dolby's two-track format was introduced around '77.
The two-track was created from the 'discrete' master (not discreet!) for cable, VHS and laserdisc before multi-track technology became available.
Warner, apparently, on this title, are not going to access any surviving 4-track stereo print or fullcoat master. They are just using the mix-down made from the 4-track which is on the HD master.
Warner won't do any decoding, the consumer will.
I don't know if there was a surround track on this film or if it was just LCR, so I don't know what kind of encode the two-track is.

Some studios routinely, did not save stereo tracks as assets, choosing to reuse the mags, once prints were sounded.

Many of Warner's early stereo tracks were reclaimed beginning c. 1989, and thereafter, usually taking advantage of the Dolby encoded system, as opposed to the creation of an x-copy.

The two Wayne films were part of that project.

Original mags no longer existed at that time.

Those tracks sound fine, and will be decoded by processorors,

 

[Stephen PI]

Many of Warner's early stereo tracks were reclaimed beginning c. 1989, and thereafter, usually taking advantage of the Dolby encoded system, as opposed to the creation of an x-copy.

I'm aware that at the time when the 4-track originals or prints were in usable condition they were mixed to 2-track format only and the discrete track was not archived at the same time, consequently in the ensuing years the 4-track has been lost, deteriorated beyond re-use or just not accessed.
It is easy and more convenient of the studios to just use the default track on the HD master and not make the effort to reach to another archive where the discrete track might be sitting. That decision is presumably decided by somebody who decides whether it is worth the expense, time and effort to go that extra step.
I contacted the LOC and submitted the list that I put up on the forum. They acknowledged that they had 4-track prints on "THE COMMAND" (1954), which is mono on the dvd and "I DIED A THOUSAND TIMES" (1955), 2-track stereo on the recent dvd and laserdisc. They didn't mention that they had the Dean films which I heard the LOC had, unless they were returned permanently to Warner.
But, as you said, the majority of people won't know the difference which is unfortunate. If films are now presented in their original intended aspect ratio why not the audio where available.

 

[Robert Harris]

I'm aware that at the time when the 4-track originals or prints were in usable condition they were mixed to 2-track format only and the discrete track was not archived at the same time, consequently in the ensuing years the 4-track has been lost, deteriorated beyond re-use or just not accessed.
It is easy and more convenient of the studios to just use the default track on the HD master and not make the effort to reach to another archive where the discrete track might be sitting. That decision is presumably decided by somebody who decides whether it is worth the expense, time and effort to go that extra step.
I contacted the LOC and submitted the list that I put up on the forum. They acknowledged that they had 4-track prints on "THE COMMAND" (1954), which is mono on the dvd and "I DIED A THOUSAND TIMES" (1955), 2-track stereo on the recent dvd and laserdisc. They didn't mention that they had the Dean films which I heard the LOC had, unless they were returned permanently to Warner.
But, as you said, the majority of people won't know the difference which is unfortunate. If films are now presented in their original intended aspect ratio why not the audio where available.

As you know, you're preaching to the choir.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Those tracks sound fine, and will be decoded by processorors,

That was what my question was about. Warner has elected to present the existing tracks as encoded stereo mixes rather than decoding them on their end to descrete mixes. It's not a big deal for me one way or the other, but I was just wondering what kind of time/effort/cost it would have been had Warner decided to do the decoding on their end vs. the savings of just providing the encoded track as is and letting our receivers at home handle the decoding.

 

[Stephen PI]

That was what my question was about. Warner has elected to present the existing tracks as encoded stereo mixes rather than decoding them on their end to descrete mixes. It's not a big deal for me one way or the other, but I was just wondering what kind of time/effort/cost it would have been had Warner decided to do the decoding on their end vs. the savings of just providing the encoded track as is and letting our receivers at home handle the decoding.

I don't think this type of elected decision exists with Warner or any other studio, unless I'm missing something in your post.
When you decode a encoded two-track stereo mix, which is what we're dealing with here, it is no longer a discrete mix. Once a discrete mix is mixed to two-track, fifty per-cent of the center channel is now married to the left and right channels. The same with the surround channel (encoded out of phase). Once decoded, if encoded and decoded properly, the illusion of channel separation is effective but you have increased the amount of crosstalk between channels which is far less in the original LCRS and it just doesn't sound the same.
When Warner, or any studio make a two-track mix-down it is always generally the consumer that does the decoding, although it has been known that a studio may cheat and take a two-track stereo (originally a discrete mix) and make a phony 5.1. Also, a Dolby encoded two-track mix can be converted into a 5.1 as the master stems are LCRS, but are officially never intended to be heard in a discrete form but made to be fed through the Dolby two-track encoding process.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Right. I understand all of that.

What I'm asking is this - on this release, my receiver will do the decoding. How much time/effort/cost would it have been if Warner had decided they wanted to do it on their end, like the scenario you describe in your last paragraph.

I have no complaints with Warner for not doing this. I'm just curious if it would have been a negligible expense (for instance, perhaps they have all the necessary equipment on hand and it only takes one pass, so just the cost of paying a technician to babysit the machines for a couple hours) or if it would be a more involved and expensive process.

I feel like this is the third time I'm asking this basic question and maybe I'm fumbling the language. I appreciate the time you've taken to share this additional information and the parts I didn't already know are very interesting, but I'm still feeling like my question is going unanswered.

 

[Stephen PI]

Right. I understand all of that.

What I'm asking is this - on this release, my receiver will do the decoding. How much time/effort/cost would it have been if Warner had decided they wanted to do it on their end, like the scenario you describe in your last paragraph.

I have no complaints with Warner for not doing this. I'm just curious if it would have been a negligible expense (for instance, perhaps they have all the necessary equipment on hand and it only takes one pass, so just the cost of paying a technician to babysit the machines for a couple hours) or if it would be a more involved and expensive process.

I feel like this is the third time I'm asking this basic question and maybe I'm fumbling the language. I appreciate the time you've taken to share this additional information and the parts I didn't already know are very interesting, but I'm still feeling like my question is going unanswered.

It is preferable if you the consumer does the decoding. Nothing can be gained by them doing it. I would think by now all AV receivers have decoding capabilities as good as anything they can do. The important thing to know is once the original LCRS is mixed and encoded to a two-track it cannot be undone.
If they do the decoding to a 4.0 or a 5.1 and they don't identify it correctly and honestly, you are under the assumption that you are getting the original discrete track, which initially, could fool most people, including myself, until such time there is a reason to study the track more closely and there are ways of telling the difference.
Am I getting warmer??

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Right, I'm not questioning or complaining about Warner's decision to put it out as they did.

I'm just asking, as matter of curiosity, if they had decided to decode it to 4.0 or 5.1 on their end rather than having the consumer do it, what kind of an expense and effort would that have been on their end?

(This isn't a precursor to me calling Warner cheap for not doing it. I'm just curious what kind of an effort in time and cost it would have been for Warner, had they elected to do it.)

 

[Mark-P]

Steve is right. We don't want the studios decoding mixdowns and then trying to pass them off as discrete. Either do a genuine remix from original recording sessions or else use the mix as is. In all the years I've been collecting movies I only know of one case where a matrix encoded Dolby Stereo movie was decoded by the studio with a pro-logic decoder and presented as 5.1 on the DVD. And I was able to figure it out by pressing my ear up against the speakers and hearing the pro-logic circuits kick in just a split second late to dampen the bleed-through of sounds from other channels.