The role of the Hybrid SACD..... (1 Viewer)

[Mike Broadman]

No, Lee, it's realism. Why should they care? The problem is that we may tend to think "less" of someone who doesn't place so much emphasis on sound quality.
I never drove a stick shift. Beyond just getting around and stuff not breaking, I don't care about driving. Most of my friends, who are all into cars, think I'm nuts. They can't understand the fact that I just don't care. Meanwhile, I get all excited that my new John Coltrane A Love Supreme SACD came in the mail, and they look at me like I'm from Mars.
The sooner you all get this whole "mass market" thing out of your heads the happier you'll be and the more you can enjoy the music. It just won't happen, and that isn't a bad thing. CDs and MP3s aren't evil, you know, they just happen to not sound as good as some other formats.

 

[Philip Hamm]

Thanks Mike, well said, and correct.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

The sooner you all get this whole "mass market" thing out of your heads the happier you'll be

I am already very happy. I just want consumer sound to evolve for everyone's benefit and for more title selection.
Now on to more important discussion: is the Coltrane SACD as good as they say? I have got every Verve except that one. I have yet to listen to Getz & Gilberto or Ella and Louis, but the new Thelonious Monk 5 by 5 is very, very good (APO label). By the way, APO's trend of issuing vinyl then a SACD is holding up - look at the great vinyl out now on APO - could mean we see Coleman Hawkins in DSD soon.

 

[KeithH]

Lee, the expectations are low, but they are based on harsh reality. As I have said, it's one thing for the masses to be impressed with the sound quality of SACD (or DVD-Audio), and therefore to be "educated", it's another thing for them to care enough to make an investment in the format. I won't ever say that the masses couldn't be impressed with SACD. They could. However, I just don't think they care enough to spend money on it. The CD is easily good enough to the vast majority of music buyers. As long as the CD is ubiquitous, meaning that SACD is not universally available by default, SACD will not gain widespread attention with the masses.

 

[Ryan Spaight]

I think Mike was exactly right, and his analogy is spot on. Everyone has something they're passionate about, and can't understand why everyone else isn't equally passionate. I know a lot of beer freaks who buy expensive imports. I don't drink a lot of beer, never have, and couldn't care less. They look at me like I just stomped a puppy if I grab a Coors Light.

The sad truth is that CD is, in the mind of most, the "audiophile" format, and MP3 is the "standard" level of quality. The CD is already perceived as an overpriced luxury item. How big can the market possibly be for an upgrade to that?

Ryan

 

[Mike Broadman]

Lee, maybe the difference between you and I is that you think CD sounds "bad" and I think it sounds "fine, but could be better sometimes." A lot of people see ditching CDs in favor of vinyl or high-res as "fixing" the sound, but most of us do not.

The Coltrane SACD is excellent. Definitely get it.

 

[KeithH]

Lee, you often make a point about the need to educate the public to the better sound quality offered by SACD. You contend that if the public gets the opportunity to experience better sound, they will appreciate it. You may be right, though I have said many times that appreciating and buying are very different things. In any event, who is going to do the educating? Sony? Do you feel Sony is really doing anything to educate the masses? Where is the mass advertising campaign? Do the SACD kiosks at the back of Best Buy and Circuit City stores and not located in the CD department educate the masses? Is Sony doing anything to educate store personnel? Most employees at retail stores, including the ones that sell SACDs, have no idea what SACD is.

 

[Justin Lane]

Do the SACD kiosks at the back of Best Buy and Circuit City stores and not located in the CD department educate the masses? Is Sony doing anything to educate store personnel? Most employees at retail stores, including the ones that sell SACDs, have no idea what SACD is.

At least in Best Buy, I have noticed they now have the 755 SACD/DVD player in the SACD section of the store away from the DVD section which I think is a bad thing since I have never seen one soul in the SACD section. At $249, it is probably the most expensive single disc player in the store as well. Consumers are apt to buy cheaper progressive scan players offered by Sony, or not even know about the 755 at all because it is not on display in the DVD player section.

From the times I have talked to employees at Best Buy and Circuit City they either a.)knew nothing about SACD at all or b.) sold it as a new surround format. In each case they never sold people on the fact that it was an upgrade from CD from a sound quality perspective. If Sony is not marketing this format to the masses, why even place kiosks in the stores most people shop in such as Best Buy and Circuit City?

The key to any widespread acceptance is the Hybrid SACD. We need more new and catalog releases that are released Hybrid only if SACD is to take off. If a Hybrid disc is already released, it should take the place of the inferior redbook only CD. This means no more $25 dollar discs you can only buy online or find in non-mainstream B&M stores for the same price. AP has audio fans by the balls at $25 a pop for the new CCR discs, making what was supposed to be a major SACD release nothing more then a niche release. My only hope (I am not holding my breath) is once they recoup their investment on these discs, they will then lower the MSRP. At that time there may be more production capability and the hybrid SACD can indeed replace all the other versions now available. People get excited about artists such as CCR and The Who coming to the format, claiming it will help the growth of SACD, then these possible big releases are put out with high MSRP (CCR) or only single layer (The Who).

J

 

[Lee Scoggins]

The key to any widespread acceptance is the Hybrid SACD.

Well I agree with this. But I will go a step further. Let's see all new releases come out in hybrid...
1) The audiophile/high end market will see a bigger commitment and gain comfort which leads to more sales.
2) The average HT enthusiast and music lover will see a big commitment and know he can count on good title releases.
3) Artists will see a commitment and think about redoing catalog titles.

Keith,
We agree that Sony could be doing more but I have said many times no one is going to win any marketing awards here. I think there is reluctance (understandable) to spend in a difficult economic environment. Yet, there are lots more SACD ads in magazines than DVD Audio, so neither format is burning down the house.
Mike,
I think your statement is correct. I do think the average CD sounds terrible. I don't mean to be elitist about this...only wish to have consumers get closer to the music via these new high resolution formats. I think if they knew how much music they were missing, they would get into Super Audio, if hardware players are low-priced and music is competitively priced.
I am definitely scouring Atlanta for the Coltrane CD. The Best Buy in my neighborhood had it but quickly sold out. I may have to mail order this one. I did pick up Ella and Louis and Getz/Gilberto so I will do some capsule revies soon. I have purchased about a dozen new titles lately and just need to sit down with them. The Monk 5 by 5 is very good and I really love the new Natalie Cole CD. I also like the older Diana Krall title that's out.

 

[ReggieW]

Lee,

This is the problem. YOU think redbook CD sounds terrible, but I have many redbook CD's in my collection which sound outstanding, though most of them are classical/film scores. I can be very critical at times, but let's get real....the average consumer DOES NOT CARE. I think many of us here have repeated this to you time and time again and you just don't get it. I was playing my recording of the Alexander Nevsky soundtrack which is an RCA red-seal title. I have several red-seal titles and they all sound AMAZING. The sonics and fidelity are outstanding on this and the instruments sound full and natural for redbook. There is a newer recording of this score now out on multi-channel SACD which I'll hopefully be picking up today, so the comparison should be interesting.

Reg

 

[Phil A]

Redbook, can sound excellent, but likely not so great on most mass market CD players that the average consumer buys. So if software is hybrid and available at a good price point, I think it has a chance with the average consumer. I do think the majority of people can hear the difference on such set-ups. I don't think they will pay premiums, especially not large ones, to get it though.

 

[Mike Broadman]

AP has audio fans by the balls at $25 a pop for the new CCR discs, making what was supposed to be a major SACD release nothing more then a niche release.

AP did nothing to give the idea that it was supposed to be a mass market release. They were always geared for audiophiles.

 

[TheLongshot]

As I've said before, the average consumer isn't going to jump on a new format on sonics alone. Hell, the average consumer thinks MP3s sound decent.

The biggest selling point these formats have is multichannel audio. That is something the consumer can notice and isn't available on the average CD.

Hell, a lot of the problems on most CDs are the mixes themselves, not the medium. There are a lot of horrible sounding CDs that would sound much better if they just got a better mix.

Jason

 

[Justin Lane]

AP did nothing to give the idea that it was supposed to be a mass market release. They were always geared for audiophiles.

Where can I read about AP's plan for the CCR discs? Maybe AP did not plan for these discs to be targeted to the mass market (big mistake then) but from what I have read from SACD aficionados on multiple message boards, it was made to sound like a major win for SACD and an inroads for mass acceptance. I like CCR, but not enough to spend 25 bucks a pop even for a SACD. As it is now I do not have unlimited funds for audio purchases, and I will pick a couple up when they go onsale instead of picking them all up when released. I know there are others like myself, so just from me they do not have 5 sales at this time.

My entire point to starting this thread was that these CCR discs, and any other Hybrid disc released, should be the only discs available to the public just like the Stones remasters. A lower MSRP would ensure more sales in both the hi-end crowd and the masses, easily offsetting any losses AP would take by not price gouging customers $25 a disc. You would think a company would want to earn more money (then again people might question why their price is still $25 a disc for their other releases). As it stands now these discs will be strictly audophile titles and a missed opportunity.

J

 

[Ryan Spaight]

My entire point to starting this thread was that these CCR discs, and any other Hybrid disc released, should be the only discs available to the public just like the Stones remasters. A lower MSRP would ensure more sales in both the hi-end crowd and the masses, easily offsetting any losses AP would take by not price gouging customers $25 a disc. You would think a company would want to earn more money (then again people might question why their price is still $25 a disc for their other releases). As it stands now these discs will be strictly audophile titles and a missed opportunity.

AP has no rights to replace Fantasy's discs in the marketplace, and to price the discs that low would probably not be profitable for AP anyway.

These discs were licensed from Fantasy as audiophile titles -- the premium price was probably "built in" to the contract. (Why would a label allow a competitor to release the same titles in superior versions at the same price?) Even if it wasn't, AP still has to pay the licensing fee, which means the discs almost have to be more expensive than the same discs from the "home" label. Think MoFi or DCC -- their gold discs were always $25-30. These SACDs are the same type of thing. They just aren't meant to be mass-market. You're paying a premium for Steve Hoffman's mastering. If that's not worth $25 to you, Fantasy would be more than happy to sell you a K2 remaster for around $16.

Now, if Fantasy were to bring out CCR SACD hybrids for $25 a pop, your argument would be valid.

Ryan

 

[Lee Scoggins]

You're paying a premium for Steve Hoffman's mastering.

And it has been well worth it!

 

[Justin Lane]

Now, if Fantasy were to bring out CCR SACD hybrids for $25 a pop, your argument would be valid.

Why didn't Fantasy put these discs out similar to the Stones releases? All this shows me is that at this time the labels themselves are not embracing SACD. Maybe more so in the future if sales are good, but by placing the discs at high price points on non-mainstream labels, it is really becoming a catch-22 situation.

J

 

[Lee Scoggins]

All this shows me is that at this time the labels themselves are not embracing SACD.

Justin, while I like your response here, this is too harsh on the format. Over 120 labels have embraced Super Audio and most of the audiophile labels most respected for engineering like Chesky and Blue Note and Telarc have picked it up. In fact, many labels are embracing the Super Audio format including all of the major labels with the exception of Warner.

As sales expand due to the newer titles like the Police and Peter Gabriel, I think we are going to see even more jump on board. At this point, a large number of major recording and mastering studios have or are receiving DSD equipment so convenience and capability should not be a limiting factor.

 

[Mike Broadman]

Where can I read about AP's plan for the CCR discs?

I didn't read anything about it, I'm just judging their behaviour:

- Producing discs that already have excellent transfers on redbook versions of the albums.

- The titles are expensive.

- They are available almost exclusively on websites that are not known outside of audiophile circles.

The CCR discs and many of those jazz titles were remastered recently and sound excellent on plain ol' redbook, are cheaper, and available in any record store.