The Perils of Home Theater (1 Viewer)

[Steve_D]

Hey, we could have Microsoft standardize everything. Or better yet, Apple-style control of the entire process!
Oh wait, Microsoft gets sued for this behavior, and Apple has been a bit player in their market for the last 15 years precisely because they don't work well with others.
While standards can be a good thing, they can also lead to problems and compromised performance. And, by the way, most consumer level (Best Buy, Circuit City, Walmart) is NOT hard to understand and decipher, taking at most a couple of hours to install. Do this and you can get "good" performance.
However, we HT/Audio enthuisiasts want "excellent" and "awesome", not "good". Doing so requires being on the leading edge of technology. Leading edge = loose or no standards. It is this way in almost every hobby or activity. For instance, there are casual bicycle riders who get on a unmaintained bike a couple of hours a week, and guys who train several hours/day and have all the latest heart rate monitors and exotic materials. Would the casual rider be able to even understand how various levels of pressure in the tires effect handling? Or, another example, put you or I in a F1 car and we'd be lucky to get it started. But I'm pretty sure most of us know how to get into our regular cars and get to work.
I'm not saying standards and technology won't evolve. It's just that he talks about some leading edge technologies then whines about their complexity.
Earth to Mr. MIT PHD: When its no longer leading edge, it won't be complicated. Either go for ease of use or go for maximum performance, the 2 are on opposite ends of the product development lifecycle.
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[MatthewJ S]

do we have to be a mechanic or race car driver to own a porsche? I think not. I am glad when people need to put a little mental effort into learning operations and hook-up, it makes my knowledge more valuble to them.however, as simplicity might be available to the low-tech as well as the "well-to-do " customers (ie;bose and B&O) it seems harder for the average guy...(riding the bicycle or riding in the back of the limo are easy compared to driving a car, but we nshouldn't have to be a technician)
I will often volunteer to go out to the customers house when he is one of those "inbetweeners", yunno the guy who wants great sound but can't afford to give up any of his money towards something he figures he can do himself.Here's my catch...I tell him(or her) to take there best crack at setting EVERYTHING up and when they're done to call me and I'll stop out.Also , I tell them that i'll be playing a little trick on them. I go out and inevitably they don't have their digital ins assigned ,something plugged in wrong, speaker wire out of phase, mixed s-vid & composite,etc., so THEN I hook it up right and have them take notes and ask questions, I balance the room ,check operation ,sound quality, and give them a quick tutorial, and may even program basic transport functions into the main remote ...then comes my trick; I tell them that everything is set-up to work w/little to do on their end except input control, and volume, etc. but that they HAVE TO READ THE MANUAL(at least the receivers)because I expect to get only questions from them that are not easily answered in the manual! I tell them that any system that they will spend this much time with for so many years should take a little getting used to , but the more they learn on their own the more enjoyment they'll get out of it...I refuse to take tips but (if they offer ,i tell them that I might just take it the next time I come out [as I laugh]) I expect intellegent questions next time...
These people are always my best customers because befor I leave they have heard how wonderful their equipment sounds and have a good starting point and taste of the "hobby"
I don't know if everyone that gets a good HT should be forced into being a "hobbyist", but sure is fun creating them out of the "average joe"

 

[Glenn Overholt]

That was the funiest article I have read in years! After I picked myself up after ROFL, I asked, is this guy a total idiot, or just plain stupid?
I don't care about what kind of a degree he has. A taxidermist may or may not be qualified to be a chef too. They just don't mix. One has nothing to do with the other.
Ok, he worked for Apple. I'm ROFL again. This is akin to buying a PC in a box - like a Dell, or any system from a store. How many members installed all of their software (including the OS)?
My first PC was based on the 8088 system, and yes, I pushed the chip in place along with 8 menmory chips (oops, no it was nine!). But before I did any of this, I went out and brought the systems manual for the 8088 and figured out what the CPU was doing.
I think that HT systems today are akin to putting together a CPU. It is not going to work unless you have done your homework first. If he doesn't understand why wire 'A' goes into socket 'C' on device 'Q', then he is in it way, way over his head.
Thanks for the laughs!
Glenn

 

[ErichH]

I must admit - I too dream of some MAjic Firewire cable to solve my noodles with no sauce .....
But then , all this research I've put in would be for nothing ... Nah !!!
I agree , our favorite Boy Toy is exciting in it's diversity & the pain of blowing money on a
bad decision brings even more glory down the road when we finally get something we like .
That said - having a few things auto recognise across the imput/output stage would NOT hurt my
ego at all . I'd rather play with the speakers .
Eric

 

[DaveF]

I'm surprised by the hostility toward making consumer goods easier to use and more accessible to those less jargon savvy.
I'm also surprised by the pseudo-elitist attitude of "HT was much better back when I had to build the receiver from rocks and twigs. And I remember when I had to first decode the digital music signal with my slide-rule, before I could listen to it. Things were better then!"
I'm lazy. I want stuff to work. I don't want to screw around with troublesome technology -- I want to enjoy movies.
This isn't "Home Hard-to-use Hardware", it's "Home Theater"!
(And if you really want more of my rantings... )

MatthewJ S: For instance, there are casual bicycle riders who get on a unmaintained bike a couple of hours a week, and guys who train several hours/day and have all the latest heart rate monitors and exotic materials. Would the casual rider be able to even understand how various levels of pressure in the tires effect handling?

Well said! And a great thing about bikes is that a novice could still get a high quality bike, and ride it without understanding tire pressure level issues. He wouldn't get the ultimate performance, but it still be useable and convey many of the benefits over a cheaper model.
Consumer electronics have improved a great deal in the past several years in terms of usability. Just look at Onkyo's remotes from two years ago to the current ones. And the manuals are far better written in many cases. The menu-driven setup procedures greatly simplify things in many newer systems. VCRs have had auto-clock set features, along with on-screen TV listings for programming. I think this is great!
I think it will help both the rich, poor, smart and stupid enjoy movies at home, if things to continue to become easier to use.

 

[Kimmo Jaskari]

I agree - to a point. There are difficult systems to set up out there, but mostly that happens if you are trying to create a personal and exceptional home theater.
The Apple of Home Theaters already exists, in the form of budget 5.1-sound-in-a-box systems. If you are too stupid to connect the speakers to the central box and press play on the DVD-player/amplifier then you should probably stick to coloring books or something, IMHO.
You don't need to know all the acronyms to have a good HT experience. You do need the basic understanding of what a 5.1 system does, but anyone with more brains than your average chimp can pick up how to operate a "HT in a box".
We enthusiasts can then continue with our own mix and match systems, selecting the parts we want in order to try to create the ultimate system for us. That would be analogous to computer geeks choosing to build their own PC's from parts to get the exact components they want, as opposed to people who just want to write their letters and surf and thus go out and buy an iFruit. I mean, iMac, sorry.

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/Kimmo

 

[Allan Jayne]

There will always be many ways to skin the cat. One, pertaining to video, is the various ways of connecting equipment -- antenna coax, composite video in, S-video, component video. Since some equipment possesses some but not all of these methods, it is left up to the individual consumer to find the common denominator for his pieces of equipment.
Almost all U.S. HDTV over the air broadcast receivers (set top boxes) provide at least one output in standard NTSC form, usually composite or S_video, so as to be compatible with most current equipment.
Also, if you are confused, feel free to post in the Home Theater Forum, there are always folks willing to help if they themselves are not stumped by the question also. (Please try to describe your situation including such things as which equipment has what kinds of jacks, and what exactly do you see that is wrong with the picture such as how thin and what color the annoying lines across the screen are.)
(a bit technical)
Interlaced scan was chosen for HDTV (1080i) because of bandwidth versus cost limitations. As broadcast, 1080i can fit in a 6 MHz channel (FCC allocation) with only occasional loss of detail where there is complex picture content in motion, but after demodulation 1080i requires 37 MHz bandwidth for absolute full reproduction in the final stages of the TV, and also the input stages if the tuner is in a separate box. 1080p (non-interlaced) requires twice that. 20 MHz will still give a stunning 1080i HDTV picture although, while the 1920 x 1080 pixels can each still be individually reproduced, any three in a row can't all be reproduced at the same time.
More video hints: http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/video.htm
[Edited last by Allan Jayne on August 05, 2001 at 06:46 AM]

 

[Martice]

I don't know if anyone has seen the list of what the original poster was trying to set up. This was no HT in box mind you. I think he had more money to spend than he had knowledge of what he was getting into and got frustrated when he realized that easy purchase doesn't mean easy setup. Classic case of the "McDonaldlization" of America. There are those of us who want everything in the form of a value meal "I'll take a number 4 with DTS on the side". I don't care what anyone says but I'll take steak and potatoes over a Big Mac and fries any day even if I have to put a little more effort into understanding how to cook it. I think we all have to realize that bringing an "excellent sounding and flexible" theater to your home takes a little effort to understand what you are purchasing and what it can do and what seperates it from the Circuit City HT in a box of the month. Hell, Circuit City and Crutchfield have tutorials on their web sites for the newbie as well. Unlike computers, how you like your music and movies are very individual and having one standard will likely bring compromises that some of us maynot be willing to sacrafice for the sake of simplicity. Quite frankly, I'm surprised that the poster would put that much money into something and not research it before hand. As the Beatles said once before "Money can't buy me Love" and it damn sure can't buy me knowledge on how to buy and properly setup a HT.

 

[RAF]

quote: That's like saying that cars are only for those who understand the mechanical operation and related jargon; for the rest there is public transit. That's not the case. Cars are operated by the mechanically ignorant, and we don't bemoan the "lowest common denominator" of those heathens driving Ford instead of Mercedes.[/quote]
DaveF,
Perhaps a better analogy would have been one of these "Home Theaters in a Box" that is available for the average person who doesn't want to have to think a bit to set up his/her equipment. Such equipment already exists and I agree that as time passes this facility will extend further into the HT curve. But flexibility (and some compromise with ease of use) is an option I don't choose to lose. My point was that if movies are the goal, you don't have to invest in a Home Theater. If you're lazy, there are options to satisfy you. If you are adventurous there are even more options with greater possibilities. Different strokes for different folks.
I stand by my "lowest common denominator" statement. I have found that standardization, while making things a bit easier (usually, but not always) more often leads to compromises which I'm glad I don't have to accept in the HT industry. If, in fact, standardization took over, I'm willing to bet that many of us would move on to something else out there that allows better control of our technological environment.
As Obi said, this is not a right, but a privilege (and a personal choice.)
And I didn't read these letters as hostile but as responsive. I do find it funny that the author worked for Apple ("The computer for the rest of us"). I'm tired of hearing the worn out mantra that you don't need a manual for something because the equipment is "intuitive." The more intuitive it becomes, the less malleable it becomes in the process. This is something that doesn't appeal to me.
Like I said, different strokes for different folks - which is part of my point here.
Take care.
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RAF
[Demented Video Dude since 1997]
[Computer Maven since 1956]
["PITA" since 1942]
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[DaveF]

Like I said, different strokes for different folks - which is part of my point here.

Agreed. I just want to see other strokes more available for more folks

 

[Jim_C]

As many have already said there are some good points in the article but taken as a whole it bothers me just a bit. I want to keep the freedom of choice that currently exists and the flexibility that various methods of connectivity allow me. I don't want to get home, plug in the power cord and master cable and be done. What fun is that? I'll leave that approach to my parents.
However, I do on occasion find myself wishing that a consensus could be reached within the industry on things such as bass management and digital TV standards. It could only help.
It seems that current arguments over in the software area relating to J6P's potential effect on studios WRT pan and scan and letterbox is analogous to some of the points made here. The more the HT industry moves toward the mainstream consumer and the preconceived notions that go with J6P the greater the potential damage inflicted upon the enthusiasts such as ourselves. Could you imagine if in the spirit of standardization and appeal to J6P all we got was pan and scan. I mean, we wouldn't have to worry about all of the anamorphic issues, etc. that come with displaying OAR vs. pan and scan, right? We'd all love that right?
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You want to upgrade again?!!
[Edited last by Jim_C on August 05, 2001 at 11:30 PM]
[Edited last by Jim_C on August 05, 2001 at 11:32 PM]

 

[Ryan Peddle]

I don't know, I don't have a PhD is anything and I just took the time to learn what all the "Jargon" is.
I have been into HT for 3 years now and everything I know I have learn form HTF or from my subscriptions to the various magazines.
I personally just find it to be bitching and complaining.
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Oops, I dropped my eardrums.
Could you pick them up for me?

 

[Randy_Sh]

Very interesting discussion...
There have been some great points made and here's my $ 0.02 on things...
The Dr. seems to have quite a few components to get hooked up and operating and it certainly isn't your run of the mill HT Box system...therefore, I am surprised that he is writing that it should be easier...was there any research done ahead of time? It's like to guy who goes out and buys a $2500 road bike to ride around the block and wonders why his rims need trued when hit runs into the curb repeatedly...he could have been riding a coaster brake cruiser for $100 that would have met his needs without all of the upkeep required of his $2500 bike...certain things require more maintenance (up-front knowledge than others). I think Home Theater is a great example of that...automobiles are one as well...as a classic car hobbyist as well, I know that a '60 Vette needs more TLC and maintenance than my Grocery Getter Geo. Why, well 40 years technology has advanced things quite a bit...intersting that both provide transportation from A to B, both start up the same way, both actually have quite a few common parts, but they're entirely different animals...
Hmmm, I could have bought a HT Box system and been happy...take everything out, hook it up, load DVD, hit play...I actually almost did, but I didn't because I didn't want that after I came here, lurked around a bit and read some posts...I bought an SPL meter to calibrate my speakers levels...did I need to? Probably not, but I wanted that option and control...am I a home theater wizard because of that, heck no, I still don't quite understand this whole interlaced/non-interlaced thing, but I am getting there...read, hand around here, learn a bit...
It's an interesting article that makes some good points, but I agree with other members posts...you're not an omniscient "tech" wizard just because you work with a "tech" product on a regular basis...some things require a little bit of reading, digesting, and learning before getting it quite right...
That's all.
Thanks.
Randy_Sh

 

[Frederick]

Excuse me if I rant for a second ... I wonder who advised him of what to buy. Did he just go out and get this stuff because he was told it was "The Best"? I didn't think a person who wasn't into HT as we are would go out and spend the kind of money it sounds like he spent without the knowledge of what it took to put it all together and make it sing. Instructions only lay out the basics. You have to want to put forth the effort to get the best out of your system. It ain't easy, and it takes time and research. It bothers me when 6-figure earners go out and buy all of this gear and have no idea of it's capabilities or it's complexity. These aren't Lego's, people ...
Ok, so our good Dr. is too good for Kenwood's HTB. Fair enough. You make the money, you should be able to reap it's benifits. So lets say the manuals were written better, and the gear had a "Plug This Into Here" chart, he plugs it in, and viola! Surround sound. He's happy. Then, one of us comes over and starts noticing red push, too much contrast on the display, speakers unbalanced, etc. Would he then be curious enough to take the next step to make his system the BEST it can be, or would he just let it sit there as is? It's like owning a Viper because it's a Viper and being surrounded by school zones. If you just want a car, go buy a car and be happy. Leave the Vipers to us purists. Just my $.02 ..
Freddy
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" ... Live Well, Laugh Often, Love Much ..."

 

[Jerome Grate]

First I agree with Steve Schick, I have a BS that's a Bachelors of Science not a degree in bulls--t,

and I find that I can program the remotes and setting up the system fine. It appears to me that clearly the author are making these comments on behalf of the average consumer. I feel we are not the average consumers, I think we as members here or any similar forums who take HT seriously are a step above the average consumers. Not as far as intelligence is concerned just on a sense of dedication and devotion towards HT.
Like in any interest, there are levels that people are willing to go. It sounds like to me the Author has a pretty nice system, THX 7.1 alone takes an enormous amount of effort to get let alone set up.
quote: First problem: Jargon. Ordinary human beings should not have to understand jargon like this: progressive, interlaced, 5.1, 7.1, 480i, 480p, 960i, 1080i, 16/9, 4/3, 3:2 pulldown, anamorphic, stretched, expanded, large speakers, small speakers, matrix sound. It is too much. Why should the ordinary consumer have to know all this?.[/quote]
The above mentioned quote is another example on how extensively one want's to get involved with building a system. You don't have to get involved if you as an average consumers does not wish to but for me understanding the jargon, is the fun part of HT. Understanding every thing aforementioned and I do, helps me to make the proper selection for purchases. Perhaps he could suggest a console piece that has every thing in one unit, (like those shelf stereo systems that has a CD player, turntable and tape deck).
At the risk of losing out on millions of dollars for this idea, maybe such a system like that would help with those consumers get the quality equipment all in one. DVD Player, VHS, receiver and T.V. (rear projection) console. Damn thing would be heavy but, it would certainly make their life easier.
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If loving Home Theater is
wrong, I don't want to be
right!!!
[Edited last by Jerome Grate on August 06, 2001 at 01:44 PM]

 

[DaveF]

I don't want to get home, plug in the power cord and master cable and be done. What fun is that? I'll leave that approach to my parents.

Personally, I want stuff to work. I've been fooling with tech for over 20 years now. I don't care much anymore to fool with gadgets just for the sake of fooling. I bought a DVD player to watch movies, not because I love cabling and arranging equipment. As HT moves ever more out of an enthusiast niche and into the homes of the mainstream it will be forced to simplify.
As for standards: it's interesting that many are saying, "I wish they would finalize the HDTV standared and then stick to it." Since HDTV is in a state of flux, purchase decisions are much more complicated and fraught with dangers of instant obsolescence.
There are also the "We need a power-rating standard for receivers" rants.
But in this thread, standards are Bad Things.
I hope for smart standards, but I'm not sure that mediocre standards are that much worse than arbitrary product specs and ever changing requirements.

 

[Jim_C]

DaveF,
Don't get me wrong. I want stuff to work as well and I don't want to spend hours setting up cable. I do, however, want to retain some of the flexibility that we currently enjoy. I don't want a simplified solution that completely takes away my ability to tinker. I would welcome some standardization and simplification if it allowed for said tinkering. I'm sure that the answer is somewhere in between the current state of affairs and the "single cable" in my theoretical solution scenario.
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You want to upgrade again?!!

 

[Pete J]

I have to agree with JohnFR. the manuals are 90% of the problem. I have a Denon AVR 4800 and haven't been able to view my VCR or Laser disks through it. The manuals are written by folks that don't give a d--- for the consumer. After spending the better part of $2k (or $3k for the 5800) one must swim through the morass of tables and vague references to other tables. If they need an example of how to write a decent manual all they need is to look at any cookbook. For each recipe (input source) list the alternative settings (ingredients) and then give a step by step procedure. I have listed my woes on this and another forum several times and have had brave souls try to explain what stupid things I have overlooked. After several tries they have all given up. I am at the point where I will have to send the unit to a service center to see if it works. STEVE SCHICK, if you can read manuals so well I invite you to make me a recipe. You can look for my manual at the Denon site and figure it out. The manuals for the 4800 and 5800 are available there. I have only composite video from my VCR and LDP to the receiver.
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[Martice]

Standards are a bad thing

Standards can be positive and standards can be negative. A good standard is the CD. You can play a CD on any system that you want to. A bad standard is not allowing me to be able to switch my CD player and run it with any cable or DAC I see fit. A good standard is the way that an Onkyo receiver can be hooked up to an Outlaw amp that is wired with Harmonic Tech's and Dh Lab speaker cable. A bad standard is having to stay within one company and settle for whatever they give you. Sort of like that value meal I was talking about. They make it seem that they are giving you a million choices but it's really all the same thing. I say Bull SHEEYAT!! I know a burger when I see one. I know a real potatoe from a processed one. If some people are happy with simplicity at the expense of tailor made performance, that's fine but I'm an Audio/Video NUT and everything that goes & comes with it. Simplicity is not the key to A/V NIRVANA but diversity and choice and the sense of pride one feels when one has taken part in the building, calibration, completion (for the time being) and ultimately the enjoyment of his/her system and it is this feeling that is at the very core of being a HT hobbyist!!!

 

[Martice]

Please disregard my rantings!!! I don't know what came over me......