The Orville - Season 1 (1 Viewer)

[Hanson]

The main premise was lifted from the Black Mirror episode Nosedive.

 

[Josh Dial]

The episode Majority Rule borrowed so heavily from the "Black Mirror" episode Nosedive that it verged on plagiarism. The episode blended the TNG episodes Justice and Who Watches the Watchers that it verged on lazy.

Because it so obviously lifted Nosedive, I can't give the episode any credit whatsoever for social commentary.

L A Z Y.

 

[Hanson]

I think this had the best integration of humor so far. A joke here, an aside there. No weird whiplash between comedy bits and drama.

I agree with Josh, there is no way anyone can compliment the parts of an episode that are wholly and thoroughly lifted from another work. The concepts of everyone rating each other via phone app for all interactions, the denial of service to people with low scores, and the way the fabric of society rests on these scores are cribbed directly from Nosedive. I'm surprised the name of the pioneer woman wasn't Lacie Pound in homage. But it's not just that they cribbed the ideas, it's that they did nothing else with them. They made no further points or observations. It was simply a regurgitation.

Having Alara's disguise fail in front of the natives was a plot point, yet as of the previous episode, they have portable holo emitters that can flawlessly disguise humans as Krills. I know that this kind of thing happens all the time on scifi TV -- one writer creates a piece of game changing tech to make his plot work, and then its existence is forgotten because it's too powerful to exist (happens in comics too). But to have the perfect holo emitter disguise directly followed in the next episode with, "wear this hat" is an extreme example of tech amnesia.

My friend made the observation that the back of the Orville looks like an open mouth with a tongue sticking out. Now I can't not see it.

 

[David Weicker]

Well, this particular theme has been used multiple times (Community “App Development and Condiments.” and Doctor Who “Vengeance On Varos”), so i’m not sure who the plagiarizer is.

I thought it was a good episode.

 

[Hanson]

I'm pretty sure the plagiarizer is whomever wrote this episode of The Orville.

Add: regardless of similarity of theme/ideas, Nosedive is clearly the source for The Orville writer(s). In a vacuum, those episodes of Community and Dr Who could be called an inspiration for Majority Rule. But when you compare Nosedive and Majority Rule, it veers from influence to straight up copying.

 

[Matt Hough]

Not knowing anything about "Nosedive," I enjoyed (but didn't love) the episode. It was LUDICROUS for someone told to keep a low profile to jump on a statue in the middle of a busy city and start acting the fool for all to see. And I have to say, I never bought his apologies either. He seemed anything but humbled by his experience. Worse, he should have gotten a far sterner reprimand back onboard, no matter his ability as a navigator.

The "true democracy" questions raised by the episode were interesting and thought provoking for someone who had never seen these earlier incarnations of the premise.

Amusingly, the episode garnered the highest rating the show has had since moving to Thursday. I'm guessing the pro football blowout on CBS brought eyeballs to other network offerings last night. Most of NBC's entire slate of shows were up in ratings.

 

[Josh Dial]

I'm pretty sure the plagiarizer is whomever wrote this episode of The Orville.

Add: regardless of similarity of theme/ideas, Nosedive is clearly the source for The Orville writer(s). In a vacuum, those episodes of Community and Dr Who could be called an inspiration for Majority Rule. But when you compare Nosedive and Majority Rule, it veers from influence to straight up copying.

Exactly. App Development and Condiments is one of my all time favourite episodes of Community--and indeed any comedy show ever. About 10 minutes into Nosedive (my favourite episode of Black Mirror--surpassing even San Junipero), I thought to myself, "oh, this is just a copy of Community." About 15 minutes into Nosedive, I thought, "Oh, no, I'm wrong: I see what they are doing here and this is something different."

The Orville did virtually nothing new. It's plagiarism.

I admit it's been decades since I've seen Vengeance On Varos, but I don't recall the parallels.

 

[Scott-S]

The idea of being able to upvote/downvote people is the same between this episode and Nosedive, but that is where the similarity ends for me. This episode showed the whole idea of laws, democracy and even punishment and treatment in the hands of voters. Nose dive just made people pariahs for having a low score. I think this Orville episode took it one step further than Nosedive so you might say the idea was taken from Nosedive and then taken in a different, more radical direction.

I don't see this as plagiarism. Just a continuation or further extrapolation.

 

[Hanson]

Seth McFarlane says he wrote the episode before Nosedive premiered. The startling similarities cropping up independently are entirely possible - the XMen and Doom Patrol have so many similarities, but it's unlikely Kirby and Lee copied the DC book considering they were published so close to each other. However, what McFarlane wrote and what contributions from the writers room and when these changes occurred are unknown.

 

[Carabimero]

gg

The Orville did virtually nothing new. It's plagiarism.

That's a serious charge.

Plagiarism is taking someone else's particular manner of expression and using it as your own. But Ideas are not property any more than words or letters are. Copyright law protects the way particular ideas are expressed, not the ideas themselves.

I became a good writer when I realized my personal expression of an idea was more valuable (legally and financially) than the idea itself.

 

[Josh Dial]

gg

Plagiarism is taking someone else's particular manner of expression and using it as your own. Ideas are not property any more than words or letters are. Copyright law protects the way particular ideas are expressed, not the ideas themselves.

I became a good writer when I realized my personal expression of an idea was more valuable (legally and financially) than the idea itself.

Yes, being a lawyer who practices, among other things, intellectual property law, I am exceedingly stupid.

gg

 

[TonyD]

Josh that’s a bit much don’t you think?

 

[Carabimero]

Yes, being a lawyer who practices, among other things, intellectual property law, I am exceedingly stupid.

If you're a practicing lawyer who's worked with IP law, and you think THE ORVILLE plagiarized that episode, I won't argue with your above comment.

On the other hand, if you're like me, perhaps you made a thoughtless or indefensible statement. I do it all the time. But I try not to do it at the HTF because invariably I'll get called out for it. And I should. Seems to me, almost everybody around here has been called out at one time or another for thoughtless or indefensible statements. It's an inevitable badge of residency. And it's part of what makes this forum worthwhile.

That said, if you feel you can defend your position, please do. My understanding is that plagiarism is claiming attribution for work one did not author. That's clearly not the case here. However, copyright infringement is using someone else's work in one's own work without obtaining permission. I think the better argument would be infringement. But even then, it's a stretch. I just don't think there's cause.

 

[Scott-S]

I think "plagiarism" is definitely not the correct term. Maybe Homage.
In reality this entire series has been a "new take" on existing stories used in the Start Trek world and it shouldn't be surprising that it also does stories from other Sci-Fi.

A question for those who think this last episode was "plagiarism" or a direct rip-off of NoseDive...
Do you think the Orville story involving capturing the Captain and 1st Officer and put in a zoo was just plagiarized from the Menagerie?

 

[Greg.K]

Not knowing anything about "Nosedive," I enjoyed (but didn't love) the episode. It was LUDICROUS for someone told to keep a low profile to jump on a statue in the middle of a busy city and start acting the fool for all to see. And I have to say, I never bought his apologies either. He seemed anything but humbled by his experience. Worse, he should have gotten a far sterner reprimand back onboard, no matter his ability as a navigator.

This. Even for this show it was ridiculous.

 

[jcroy]

(More generally).

If this show starts having lawsuits piling up , then I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up be canceled after one season.

At times I wonder whether the legal eagles on the payroll of Paramount and CBS, are closely looking for something to sue Fox, Seth MacFarlane, etc ...

 

[jcroy]

That said, if you feel you can defend your position, please do. My understanding is that plagiarism is claiming attribution for work one did not author. That's clearly not the case here. However, copyright infringement is using someone else's work in one's own work without obtaining permission. I think the better argument would be infringement. But even then, it's a stretch. I just don't think there's cause.

One way to know whether plagiarism is involved definitively, if the episode's writer(s) talks and admits outright they plagiarized. (Assuming they don't plead the fifth).

I don't know if there's any easy way of compelling the writer(s) to talk, without them pleading the fifth (whether implicitly or explicitly).

 

[BobO'Link]

I've never seen, or heard of, "Nosedive" so the whole idea was more fresh for me. (Looking it up I see that it's a Netflix series - that explains it.)

I thought it was a good episode. I'd have to watch them all again to decide if it's the "best yet." It would be a close call in any event.

I was surprised at the rather blatant social commentary simply because you don't see much of that these days (at least I don't but then I also pretty much avoid current films and TV shows). I feel it was decidedly more direct than anything that would have aired in Star Trek. It was also blunt without coming off as preachy. I liked an observation/comment from Bortus when discussing the planetary justice system with the waitress: "A voice should be earned, not given away." Of course you could say the same thing about our voting system, which precious few use. It makes you wonder just which viewpoint they are stressing: If everyone votes, especially in such a simple and easy manner, it devolves into mob rule, or If few bother to vote then whose voice are you relying on for societal decisions? Maybe both...

I, too, noticed the use of conventional disguises and wondered just why they didn't go with the portable holo-emitter. But I then recalled that those didn't work that well on the Krill ship and chalked it up to an unspoken decision to avoid such a possible breach of disguise in a much larger, and far more public, situation. That was also necessary for the plot of the headgear being specific to a particular race/location on the planet which was key to getting the coffee shop girl to the ship. But that still could have been done via malfunctioning holo-emitter. Of course had that been done they'd be skewered for using the same plot device too frequently. Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

And why use a shuttle? They have transporters. Do they not work well enough for ship to surface transfers? I don't recall that being discussed in the show so there could be a limitation in the technology to which we've not yet been made privy.

John "dancing" with the statue and his total lack of self control, while rather absurd for an away team member, and especially so in this type of situation, is in keeping with the nature of his character as it's been presented at this point in the show. He's a loose cannon, doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut, and is constantly displaying a lack of what most would call "acceptable behavior." I was more bothered by Kelly calling him "Lt." and him answering her as "Commander" in public. And this was every time they used those designations in a more public area. No one in the populace noticed?!? I found that far more unbelievable. Add to that Kelly constantly talking to the Orville via communicator in public and no one noticing. Those are my biggest gripes this time out. Those could, and should, have been dealt with better without impacting anything in the episode.

I found myself curious about what would happen in the future should a planet resident receive those last few down votes that push them over 10 million. As those don't appear to drop - ever - they'd be sure to get that many with little effort. And that the coffee shop girl refused service to a woman who had too many down votes would make it seem that they'd be refused service at many establishments making survival practically impossible.

I laughed quite a bit and absolutely feel they've finally found the balance integrating the humor with the show. The big surprise is that McFarlane wrote the episode. And there wasn't a dick joke. And the relationship joke wasn't about Ed and Kelly for a change.

**EDIT TO CORRECT**

Well... there were actually 2 "dick jokes" but they weren't quite as blatant and I laughed at both:

Grayson: I think you look good in skinny jeans
LaMarr: If I wanted to scratch my balls right now, I'd have to reach in my back pocket.

Grayson: Why are you sitting like that?
LaMarr: It's these friggin' jeans. If I lean back right now, I'd give myself a vasectomy

**END EDIT**

I grew to like the doctor more this episode and the other characters are absolutely growing on me, even McFarlane as the Captain.

I'm watching The Orville via Fox's web site a day or two after it's aired. So far, the streaming has been mostly rock solid, with only an occasional stutter. Without looking closely, I'd say it has one more commercial break than does the commercial subscription version of ST: D with breaks of the same length (60 seconds). In spite of that, Orville's commercial breaks feel shorter as they don't hang requiring a restart of the stream forcing a repeat of the commercials. CBS could take some lessons here.

With each week's viewing I come away more impressed with The Orville than with ST: D. Yes, they are two totally different shows. The Orville is, even with some darker episodes and themes, a more hopeful feeling show. I don't want to go so far as to say ST: D is depressing, but it has little hope on display. It's not about exploration, which has been the main point of every Trek series to date, but about war and vengeance. That would be OK if there was at least a little hint of light at the end of the tunnel, but it's absent. Discovery is a ship full of un-likeable characters, none of whom I want to get to know. The Orville is a fun ship with not a single character I don't want to know better. Even John, dingleberry that he is. They all feel like people I'd like to hang around with.

In spite of my initial reactions and observations, I'm really liking this series.

 

[Hanson]

I'm pretty sure there aren't transporters on this show, probably because that's skirting ever closer to a lawsuit. They've always used shuttles AFAIK.

I enjoy The Orville enough, but it feels like a C student of a show. Anything where it falls short is brushed away as the show is acknowledged to have rough edges, and anything it does even halfway competently is hailed as a great accomplishment. Personally, it doesn't hold a candle to Discovery, which is exponentially more polished, finished, nuanced, and thoughtful. Being unable to consistently have a means of disguise for away teams in consecutive episodes, for example, just smacks of winging it. They're just throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks. The well of nostalgia it draws from saves it from spiraling into disaster, but the show feels very haphazard.

 

[BobO'Link]

Star Trek doesn't have a lock on transporters. They existed in printed SF long before being co-opted for use in TOS. One of my favorite stories using teleporters is the novella "The Unteleported Man" by Philip K. Dick, first published in 1964.

There's also:
"The Disintegration Machine" - Arthur Conan Doyle, 1929
"Travel by Wire!" - Arthur C. Clarke, 1937
"The World of Null-A" - A. E. van Vogt, 1945
"It's Such a Beautiful Day" - Isaac Asimov, 1954
"The Fly" - George Langelaan, 1957 (and the 1958 film based on the work)
"Rogue Moon" - Algis Budrys, 1960

The Orvill can use them with impunity.