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The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.) (2 Viewers)

Lord Dalek

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mike kaminski said:
I agree. But listen to the workprint--thats how the workprint is. Theres a segue and not just a crude cut. To me it seems as though its the workprint mix dropped in--but this seems completely illogical when you consider how this could have possibly occured. The only halfway rational explanation is that the workprint might have been considered to be included via branching but then axed and somehow the audio ended up attached for certain chapters--but this is pretty reaching.
Yeah but it doesn't segue in at the same moment, in fact there is no trace of "Love Theme" in that scene at all in the Workprint, Desolation Path just plays all the way through instead of in the DC 5.1 where it sorta wanders in for about 15-20 seconds then wanders back out. My first guess would have been they were trying to cover up some of Harrison's narration but there isn't any in that scene so I'm not exactly sure why they chose to do this if the problem existed with the original element as I think it does. And yes it definitely would be nice to get a true answer before this dissolves into an argument over idealism vs. actual warts-all accuracy.
 

mike kaminski

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Lord Dalek said:
Yeah but it doesn't segue in at the same moment, in fact there is no trace of "Love Theme" in that scene at all in the Workprint, Desolation Path just plays all the way through instead of in the DC 5.1 where it sorta wanders in for about 15-20 seconds then wanders back out. My first guess would have been they were trying to cover up some of Harrison's narration but there isn't any in that scene so I'm not exactly sure why they chose to do this if the problem existed with the original element as I think it does. And yes it definitely would be nice to get a true answer before this dissolves into an argument over idealism vs. actual warts-all accuracy.
Good catch in that the music segue is slightly different. I offer that theres no way its due to source availability issues (ie due to the VO removal)--because the theatrical and international cuts have no Koawalski (the VO comes in a few seconds afterwards), and every single version has the proper music in the scene with Rachel. Mixing or source availability is not an explanation, these things have been deliberately designed.
Re-reading Future Noir, there are a number of additional changes that were proposed but never implemented, and they were working based on the workprint, not the theatrical cut--in other words, they didn't start with the theatrical cut and then decide how to change it, they started with the workprint and decided how to change it. The workprint was what was reviewed and screened by Scott and the editors who created the DC. So this may explain why additional workprint sound elements ended up in a mix--and Future Noir also states that Scott deliberately ordered them not to correct Bryant's line about the number of replicants (I believe its correct in the WP, so it was "uncorrected" for the DC). But before this could be worked on the deal was cancelled--but meanwhile Warners had prepared a second version, that neither Scott nor restorationist Michael Arrick was aware of: an Enhanced Workprint. This was the WP, just cleaned up--the elements were remastered and Vangelis' score returned to the final reel. So there were two versions being done simultaneously, each one unaware of the other. As far as Sammon makes it clear this version was completed, and in the confusion Scott actually signed off on it. But it too was cast aside when the deal was cancelled--all of which resulted in a third version: the actual DC that was released, completed hastily in twenty-one days, based not on the WP but the theatrical cut. Is it possible that the DC mix on the new set used elements from this Enhanced Workprint master? It would explain why it uses "cleaned up" sounding elements taken from the WP, but re-mixed in a different way (as the Rachel scene music is, and possibly may also be the case for Deckard's intro). Perhaps these were discovered and mistakenly thought to be the original sound masters for the DC--they would have 1992 dates after all.
Based on Sammon's description, the sound mixing of the released DC was very straightfoward-- use the thatrical cut sound masters and simply carefully remove the voice-over. So theres no alternate mix or anything. Here is what he writes:
"Next, Arick digitally remixed the film's soundtrack, using both the film's original two-track mag tape dialog master and four-track magnetic tape M&E (music and effects) master as audio guides. Careful frame-by-frame counting then had to be done to remove the approximately eighty words of Ford's narration heard on the original theatrical release."
So, since it was a simple re-mix based on the theatrical cut's sound elements, I think this rules out that these unheard elements were mixed in at that point but never used. The new elements we are hearing now never appeared in any release of the film except the WP, so they could only be implemented in the DC if the actual masters and raw dialog recordings were unearthed from the Warners archives--which they weren't. On the other hand, the 1992 Enhanced Wokrprint remastered and re-mixed the soundtrack of the Workprint. The music in the final reels was replaced but the Rachel scene is not ever mentioned, and because that music is so subtle and fits in with the scene, it was probably left as it was, barring the enhanced remixing, which explains why the segue and cues are different (and smoother).
So, I might have solved this. As Scott writes, these "Archival versions" were taken from the original six-track masters--but there were no six-track masters made for the DC, the sound mix was only done for a 35mm release. So when they were making the new DVD and found 70mm six-track masters from 1992 they thought it was proper DC elements--but they are from a never-released Enhanced Workprint that Warners created that year.
Ta-da!
 

Lord Dalek

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^Thats a very good theory. In fact thats the best theory I've heard so far on the matter barring an explanation taken straight from Lauzirika's mouth. In which case I appologize in advance for all the grief we've been causing him online for the past two days.
 

Will_B

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Speaking of Future Noir, has anyone received the expanded hardcover edition of the book from Amazon.co.uk yet?
 

Douglas Bailey

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Will_B said:
Speaking of Future Noir, has anyone received the expanded hardcover edition of the book from Amazon.co.uk yet?
I picked the new edition up while in the UK over Christmas: does that count? :)
It's definitely worth having (ooh! hardcover!), but the new material isn't integrated as well as I'd expected: the book is really the current US edition with several new chapters - covering the Final Cut, the DVD set, etc. - slotted in before the appendixes. (That is, the existing material hasn't been re-written at all in light of the new stuff.)
This approach makes it harder to find references, since you have to remember whether they're in the old or new chapters. I'd have preferred a full-fledged second edition, with the new material integrated into the existing structure, but am still pleased to have an updated version.
Doug
 

Ray_R

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I finally got this as a belated XMas present. I'm #043397/103000. The clear vinyl/whatever slipcase over the briefcase was mildly warped on the top left side. No biggy. I took a look inside and wow, this is one of the most beautiful limited editions I've ever received. Was a slight bit of a letdown the case was plastic instead of metal. Good thing it wasn't or it would've fetched a much higher going price.
I also expected the case to be a tad larger and the spinner to be die-cast metal. Perfect compliment to my slightly minimal BLADE RUNNER collection of the first printing of Paul M. Sammon's Future Noir: The Making of Blade Runner; Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? (1982 Blade Runner printing); Westwood Games 1997 BLADE RUNNER video game (CD-ROM BBFC version even though I bought it awhile ago not even 15 miles from my house) and the "Esper Edition" CD soundtrack.
Are there any models of the spinners at all? I should check on that very comprehensive Blade Runner site.
I'm mostly familiar with the 1992 Director's Cut. I'll go in chronological order with the Workprint, 1982 Theatrical, International, 1992 Director's and finally the 2007 Final Cut.
Oh, one last thing about the video game... It took me over several tries repeatedly clicking the lower left corner at the part where that bomb goes off! Highly recommended if you can find it. I'm going to look for the game again in the meantime and do the full install. Can't wait to play it again and see which outcome I get. Very much was one of the very first, that I know of, video games which had multiple-endings and playthroughs depending upon what you did at certain times.
 

JamesTLewis

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rich_d said:
But, you could say .. .. well, seriously.. how many times is someone going to watch 4 out of the 5 of the versions NOT that person's favorite?
But, you could say .. .. well, seriously.. should we be discussing this stuff or working on the problem of world hunger. Does this whole forum matter?
James, it's not just you, but I'm tired of posters downplaying the issues raised. It's quite simple, if you believe that the wrong audio is acceptable on a DVD release, make your case.
These 'things could be worse' posts are about as helpful as knowing that a stopped clock shows the correct time twice a day.
Ouch. :frowning:
OK. It's not acceptable to have the wrong audio on the release. I admit that. I was just trying to soften the blow to all those who have forked out big bucks for the briefcase. Will WB do a replacement? I'm sure charlie is now well aware of the problem. Will I be able to get a replacement sent to the UK? who knows. BTTF was sent to me here but wiil WB put out?
I'll need SD and Blu Ray replacements too! :)
oh. And I do apologise if my sig annoys. :frowning:
 

rich_d

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JamesTLewis said:
Ouch. :frowning:
Okay, sorry, that was harsh. Not everyone is going to see things the same way, but if the Studios get an inconsistent or poorly thought out response from us here at HTF, can we blame them much if they ignore us?
Your sig is fine, just borrowed it for my own use. ;)
 

rich_d

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mike kaminski said:
the sound mix was only done for a 35mm release. So when they were making the new DVD and found 70mm six-track masters from 1992 they thought it was proper DC elements--but they are from a never-released Enhanced Workprint that Warners created that year.
Not sure I'm following ... if that were the case, wouldn't, for example, Desolation Path then be on the Final Cut? After all, there are no six-track masters for that other than what they pull from other material.
 

mike kaminski

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rich_d said:
Not sure I'm following ... if that were the case, wouldn't, for example, Desolation Path then be on the Final Cut? After all, there are no six-track masters for that other than what they pull from other material.
Has nothing to do with the Final Cut. Really, its the best answer there is right now. It is said that they had to create the mix out of a variant of sources due to damage, gaps, etc., so perhaps thats why WP-sourced audio is only in certain places. You could never simply sync audio from the Enhanced Workprint anyway, the editing is different so things would drift out of sync, so it could only be used in parts. To me its the only rational explanation though--they find these cans in the Warners archive with an august 1992 creation date and when they play them back its the film without the voice-over so they assume its some kind of 70mm DC element, when its really from the Enhanced Workprint that was thrown away.
 

rich_d

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mike kaminski said:
Has nothing to do with the Final Cut. Really, its the best answer there is right now. It is said that they had to create the mix out of a variant of sources due to damage, gaps, etc., so perhaps thats why WP-sourced audio is only in certain places. You could never simply sync audio from the Enhanced Workprint anyway, the editing is different so things would drift out of sync, so it could only be used in parts. To me its the only rational explanation though--they find these cans in the Warners archive with an august 1992 creation date and when they play them back its the film without the voice-over so they assume its some kind of 70mm DC element, when its really from the Enhanced Workprint that was thrown away.
I think the problem in your logic may be that you're struggling to find a reasonable explanation beyond that they made some sort of mistake.
Needing audio from different sources to pull together a six track recording is all well and good ... but is still does not explain the problem. The Director's Cut scene where the Desolation Path music is used (5.1 version) is the same scene as in the Final Cut. Yet, the Final Cut has the correct 5.1 music. If they have the audio, they have the audio and they should have used it for the Director's Cut. They messed up and I don't even want to attempt to guess at how they messed up. Nor do I expect an explanation.
 

Lord Dalek

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rich_d said:
I think the problem in your logic may be that you're struggling to find a reasonable explanation beyond that they made some sort of mistake.
And your problem is you are jumping to conclusions. Its one of the things that has always annoyed me about this forum, somebody spots one or two teeny weenie minor differences and then suddenly the sky is falling.
And besides, Warner Quality Control is always speedy about their responses to these things and their lack of incite one the matter indicates there is no matter.
 

mike kaminski

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rich_d said:
Needing audio from different sources to pull together a six track recording is all well and good ... but is still does not explain the problem. The Director's Cut scene where the Desolation Path music is used (5.1 version) is the same scene as in the Final Cut. Yet, the Final Cut has the correct 5.1 music. If they have the audio, they have the audio and they should have used it for the Director's Cut.
Thats exactly why I think I have the only explanation right now. If they have the audio then they have the audio, as you said--so it can't be because of lack of sources. I believe they mistook the 1992 Enhanced Workprint audio for the 1992 Directors Cut audio, I'm saying they put it in there by accident because they thought it was the real DC soundtrack when really it wasn't. Otherwise theres no way that Workprint-exclusive elements like the music could have ended up in the film.
 

JediFonger

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finally finished disc 2 dangerous days. i wonder if it'd looked awesome on HD! =P. i know they didn't have enough time and wanted to rush it before the end of the year AND we're in a SD DVD->HD media transition but having an "ultimate" collection that i paid good $ for in 5 HD discs only to have 2 of them being SD is kinda' strange :laugh:. perhaps there is an "extreme" edition in the future where disc2&4 will be rediscombobulated into hd?
 

Jack Johnson

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Blade Runner, four disc set: stellar content, lousy packaging...which is probably why I'm about to call for my second replacement due to scratched dvds, which really seem to be on the rise these days. I've begun to feel as if the only practical course of action is to accept damaged media...because that next replacement will be in even worse shape than my original.

Anyone else here dispirited to the point where "the play's the thing"; if a dvd plays through without skipping, freezing or manifesting any other kind of image break-up, you decide this one's a keeper? I'm pretty much there now, because we've reached the age where "the aesthetics of new"--whereby something is devoid of apparent defect--are, it would seem, no longer attainable.

--Jack
 

GuruAskew

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I never even check the bottom of my DVDs for scratches.
I've had pristine-looking DVD's turn out to be defective and I've had discs with scratches play fine.
Playing the actual DVD and making sure there are no defects is really the only way to be sure.
 

Vincent_P

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Does anybody have any clue what the meaning is behind the dead woman in the bathtub in BLADE RUNNER? I only noticed her recently on the HD-DVD (she's submerged in the tub behind Deckard during the climax in the scene where Batty puts his head through the wall and then fights Deckard in the same room), and low and behold there is even an unused take featured in the supplements where you can really see her in detail as Deckard walks into the room and sits on the rim of the tub. There is no mention of her in the commentaries, she's just visible in the background of the scene in the final film, and very clearly seen in that unused take in the supplements, so I'm left baffled. Is this a remnant of the otherwise unfilmed "sixth replicant" subplot, or just a bit of strange background detail that was added to the shot to catch audiences off-guard and leave them uneasy?
Vincent
 

JamesTLewis

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My Briefcases are sitting in my local Post Office.... Just have to pay the £30 import taxes to release them and I can finally see this set for myself.......
 

Jack Johnson

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Bill GrandPre said:
I never even check the bottom of my DVDs for scratches.
I've had pristine-looking DVD's turn out to be defective and I've had discs with scratches play fine.
Playing the actual DVD and making sure there are no defects is really the only way to be sure.
It's because I've seen the two--scratches and playback glitches--correlate so often, that I always check. And then there are those accursed expectations that new media look, well, new. But I'm driving myself crazy in the pursuit of the latter, so last night I viewed all the content on my scratched up Disc 3 and watched all the sections that branch off the main feature for the different versions...and it all seemed to play fine. So I hereby embark on getting real and relaxing my standards a bit; it's a keeper.
--Jack
 

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