The next Star Wars movie will be influenced by this... (1 Viewer)

[Ted Lee]

They are acting on their emotion instead of logically thinking out the situation....Obviously neither parent is wearing the pants in the family.

i don't remember mike - did you state whether your have children or not?

parents aren't immune to emotion when it comes to their kids. i have twin 8 year olds that are my girlfriend's from a previous marriage but i still think of them as my own. i still worry about what they're going through and how other kids will interact with them. and i'm not even thier "real" dad. i also have a pretty close connection with my newphews who are also very young.

i've always suspected if i ever had my "own" child, those emotions would only be enhanced even further.

i'm not saying what the parents are doing is right. i do agree that it's probably a bad example to set for the kid. but i think i may know where they're coming from. of course, i can't be sure.

ultimately who knows...maybe they're viewing this as a money-making opportunity.

on the topic of bullying, i would like to think that you can usurp a bully with non-violent tactics...but that's a rare thing. i can't remember ever seeing a bully embarassed enough to stop. but a good thump....

 

[Gordon Moore]

Some of this talk is getting silly. This shotgun justice mentality has to stop.

The advocates of physically fighting back are deluding themselves that this is the answer. Fighting back makes you no worse than the bully yourself. Teach your kids to out-smart someone and you've taught them a valuable lesson. Teaching a kid to fight violence with violence teaches them nothing.

How many more Columbines do you need to realize that bullying is not/should not be a normal part of life. Guess what? Your kids are a reflection of home-life and it started from day one...so Moms and Dads take a good long look in the mirror, Junior listens/learns from EVERYTHING you say or do. You mold them into who they are.


Okay all that said...the suing thing is really silly. Doesn't anyone sit down and just talk to people anymore? How come the parents couldn't get together and work this out amicably?

 

[Ted Lee]

let me be clear, i'm talking from a child's perspective. i'm definitely not saying an adult should go out and beat the crap out of someone.

but kids are different, they're not prone to logic. ask any parent.

 

[Max Leung]

The advocates of physically fighting back are deluding themselves that this is the answer. Fighting back makes you no worse than the bully yourself. Teach your kids to out-smart someone and you've taught them a valuable lesson. Teaching a kid to fight violence with violence teaches them nothing.

That's funny. I learned a lot from my experience being bullied. None of the goody-two-shoes approaches to bullying worked in my situation. The bullies were a grade or two ahead of me, so there is no chance of embarassing them in class. I was the smallest kid in school, likely 10-20 pounds less than the next smallest kid. I was the only Asian kid in the school. The teachers were apathetic, and the bullies were smart enough to make sure no adults were around. My parents couldn't help: they had their hands full just getting by in a new country with a different culture.

What do you suggest I do? Take "counselling" (there was no counsellor)? Tell a teacher (and make things worse)? Sit back and take it, which I had for two years already?

It is all and well to say violence is bad. That nobody should do it. And if a kid had no choice, you conveniently blame the victim for resorting to the only means he had. Because the ADULTS failed to intervene. Where were the damn idealists when I needed them? Doing nothing, of course.

Wishful thinking gets you nowhere. That is the valuable lesson I learned. And obviously my reaction to the situation did not turn me into a goon, prowling the streets with a baseball bat or a handgun...that would be an insult to my nature.

 

[Gordon Moore]

Wishful thinking gets you nowhere. That is the valuable lesson I learned.

That's very unfortunate. Fighting is such an easier path...the alternatives take more work.

Kinda like spanking...it gets a more immediate response but causes more problems than it solves later on in life. But in the short term is very effective.

You have to remember that times are changing. Schools are starting to take violence very seriously. Schools have become more pro-active. It's better, not perfect but better. Getting administration, teachers, councellors and parents involved is the only way that attitude of fighting back with fists is going to stop. I've seen bullies transferred out of districts now.

 

[Max Leung]

What is the difference between racism on the schoolyard and bullying? It's the same thing: http://kidshealth.org/parent/emotion...r/bullies.html

It doesn't change the fact that retaliating actually worked. It worked for everyone who ever experienced bullying in school, whether through the threat of violence (remember, I never actually hurt anyone), or public humiliation. And remember, this is a few years before people acknowledged that racism and bullying were problems. And a few more years had to pass before anything was done about it.

As a kid, I knew this instinctively -- hence why my course of action was the correct one.

Information from this page is somewhat helpful, although these sentences have already been debunked in this thread:

How can your child handle a hostile confrontation with a bully? Getting angry or violent won't solve the problem; in fact, it's giving the bully exactly what he wants.

Bullocks. Completely contradicted by my experience, the experiences of others here, and the experiences of my friends who at one time or another was bullied. I would venture to say that there is no evidence to support this extraordinary claim, although if someone could point me to a study that would be great. However, I would concede that in our cases, bullies may have underestimated our abilities to fight back. Perhaps they wanted a kid to fight back -- and with the assumption that "size matters", the bully may have thought himself immune to harm. Oopsy. Then again, bullies would rather pick on kids who cannot or will not fight back at all -- humiliation may be enough to stop some bullies, but other bullies would require more physical persuasion.

Would you expect those psychopaths who torture (aka "bully") cats to continue their practice if the cats were fully-grown Saber-tooth tigers?

It's good that times are changing...but I hope they are not basing their policies on false evidence, faked and deeply flawed social science studies, and wishful thinking. My fear, from a cursory glance at the anti-bullying sites out there, is that we are still in wishful thinking mode.

As for the Star Wars kid: Let's see what happens in court, shall we?

 

[Max Leung]

Here is an article, similar to the results I've read in Scientific American last year about the link between self-esteem and violence:

Violent Pride

"Especially exaggerated or unfounded self-esteem or the desire to think you're better than others, this thing of telling kids that they are doing great no matter how well they do, giving trophies to everybody, having children write stories or lists of all the great things about themselves," doesn't help anyone. (In fact, there are no conclusive studies showing that raising self-esteem produces socially desirable or beneficial consequences.)

It's amazing that no one had done any controlled studies on self-esteem. But we hear about it everywhere -- in the news, magazines, self-help books...and they all tell me that I'm better than all of you! Nyah nyah!

 

[Gordon Moore]

My fear, from a cursory glance at the anti-bullying sites out there, is that we are still in wishful thinking mode.

Without the "wishful-thinking" that you so quickly throw aside, we could never change or begin to change. The very racism that you were subjected to would be no different today or worse. All patterns would continue the same cycle of violence.

The fact that fighting back physically worked for you and others means that you have no other alternative to offer your kids when they have a problem. If your kid accidently kills or cripples the bully...what wisdom will you have for them then?

"They had it coming"?


No, I don't think so.

I hope that you tell your kids that it's okay to dream or hope...reach for the stars...etc. Without some idealism, nothing would change. Enjoy what you have now because wishful thinking is what got it all started.

take care,

Gord

 

[MikeAlletto]

I hope that you tell your kids that it's okay to dream or hope...reach for the stars

Dreaming and hoping is one thing, but eventually in a childs development they need to realize they CAN'T have everything they want. They DO need to settle in some form or another. They AREN'T always the smartest, prettiest, fastest, strongest, etc. There will always be someone better.

Through hard work they can get close, but no one gets everything they want. No matter how much they dream. Dreams rarely come true. Hard work, sacrifice, and compromise are the only ways to come out on top. Its not about accepting defeat, its about accepting the reality of the situation. You can accept the reality and still live a completely happy life.

 

[Ted Lee]

Oh and no, I don't have kids, but I completely understand how difficult it is and what it takes to raise them.

no offense mike, but i don't think anyone truly knows what it's like to have kids until they have kids. did that make sense? :b

seriously though, i pretty much agree with you and your philosophy. i truly believe that *sometimes* a good whack will do more good then a speech.

but i think these parents are struggling to find a way to help their kid. just try not to be so hard on them - i do beleive they're hurting in their own way.

i guess i'm just trying to present another viewpoint of why the parents are acting the way they are...that's all.

 

[Gordon Moore]

The parent is there are the source of authority. If the child does not respect the parent then all is lost

I agree whole-heartedly.


Like I said...spanking or hitting is easy.

You were obviously spanked...me too... but I'll never do it to my kids. They hate me just as much when I time them out. They hate it even more when I time them out in a corner at the supermarket.

Being the kid of a parent and the parent of a kid are 2 very different things. One day you'll find that out. In other words you really have no idea right now...

You're lightening the word hitting your kid by using a more pc term like whack, smack, spank...how come?...I thought you weren't going to be pc?

 

[Ricardo C]

Nevermind, missed past of Gordon's post.

 

[Max Leung]

Gordon, I don't appreciate being pigeon-holed into the "non-dreaming, will raise bad kids" camp. I was expecting facts or logic -- not a straw man argument EDIT: or do I mean ad hominem?.

Anyways, when I say "wishful thinking solutions" I'm talking about parents and schools just doing something because it makes them feel good, with no bearing on reality whatsoever...no studies to back them up, or dismissing studies because it contradicts their beliefs. For example, studies of the effectiveness of anti-bullying programs in schools have shown inconclusive results so far.

I can dream of going to the stars or world peace, but I can't just wish it to happen. Like Mike said, it takes guts, hard work, determination, and the ability to take stock of the situation to plan a course of action.

Actually that statement is very wrong. I have 2 kids and it works very well...If it isn't working you are not being consistent.

(Quote referring to timeouts and corner punishment): Just because it works for you doesn't necessarily mean it will work for everyone. Every child is different. Some are absolute angels, others are unholy terrors, and many are in-between. Different tactics for different behaviors. There are problem kids out there...and it isn't always the parents' fault either.

I know it is heresy to say it, but not all kids are born the same!

 

[Micheal]

Max, do you really think that the way you handled your situation is better than the situation that I described with the teacher stepping in and changing the bullies attitude completely? All you did was move him on to the next victim.

Do you really value what you did over what could possibly fix the problem entirely?

If so I'll stop posting since it will be obvious to me that you think violence is the only answer. For a person who has faced racism I find this hard to believe.

Spanking/hitting children: I grew up with the belt and spanking, my children will not. It takes far more patience to discipline your child than it does to just hit them. All you're teaching them is "If you want to get your point across, use physical violence!" Are we not smart/mature enough to deal with our children without hitting them?

 

[Jeff Kleist]

The advocates of physically fighting back are deluding themselves that this is the answer......What were they....what were all the options you exhausted?

Well, I call 4-5 years without taking the person out, and informing the authorities on a 3 strike system "exhausting". You put up with it for months, and it doesn't stop. You see while the outsmart approach works for the current situation some of the time, the problem continues. The goal of violence is to get them to STOP.

Gordon, how old are your children? I didn't have much ofa problem in elementary school, it was middle school, so if they haven't reached that point yet, you haven't experienced most of the situations we're talking about here from the parent's side.

I hope your children never have to go through what we did, but they're going to hit it in some form or another at some point.

 

[Micheal]

Jeff, if someone else HAD stepped in and fixed your problem with the bully (without kicking the crap out of him) wouldn't that have been a better solution?

I think what happened to you is unfortunate, had someone else stepped in at the beginning I don't think you would have had a 4 to 5 year problem.

hope your children never have to go through what we did, but they're going to hit it in some form or another at some point.

They won't. Schools are really starting to come down on bullying. Rightfully so.
I've never run into a "bully" outside of school or in my adult life. Laws tend to prevent that sort of thing (for the most part).

 

[MickeS]

"We are all well adjusted adults"? I would beg to differ.

 

[Ricardo C]

I received a few spankings as a kid, and turned out quite alright. Not every instance of physical punishment can be automatically labeled "child abuse". I doubt I'll ever spank my children, but I don't rule it out, either.

 

[Micheal]

I doubt I'll ever spank my children, but I don't rule it out, either.

I just know that I will go through EVERY OTHER OPTION POSSIBLE before resorting to what I consider a barbaric technique.

Let's just say that I don't plan on going into parenthood thinking "If my children get out of hand... I'll just whack them!" like some people obviously are.

 

[MickeS]

I just don't understand why you'd let yourself stoop to spanking. That to me would be like hitting a coworker if he argued with you.