The Movie Retread Thread (1986) (1 Viewer)

Can you think of a film you watched during younger years coming away with one perception and then re-watched years later only to see things quite differently? This thread is intended to foster discussion of such experiences and, hopefully, in the process open up new film alternatives to all who participate. To keep things respectable, please use the below format, as I get things started.

Aliens (1986)
Director: James Cameron

Spoiler: Have You Seen The Film

Early Take: I thought this was a perfectly crafted film, typical of the meticulous Cameron. It took over where the original installment left off and delivered stunningly believable effects for it's time, along with a gripping and entertaining story.

Recent Take: I still love the action and enjoy the excellent performances, especially the late, great Bill Paxton but I simply don't buy the storyline. Sigourney Weaver's character [Ripley] had already encountered the Alien and was brought on as a consultant, yet the USCM team went in completely unprepared and made basically the same inexplicable decisions [touching unknown substances, sticking around way too long after initial Alien presence was confirmed] as the crew in the original film did. Weaver's character only thought to warn advise nuk'ing the sight from orbit only after the first round of carnage.

[Walter Kittel]

Regarding the Recent Take on the film Aliens:

Spoiler

While I can understand the criticism of similar mistakes being made in the sequel, I tend to excuse them for the following reasons:

1) Hubris. Cameron paints a portrait of very confident military personnel, esp. Vasquez and Drake. The soldiers had not encountered a species like the Xenomorphs which led to them underestimating the aliens. Ripley was a consultant who attempted to warn them, but their overconfidence blinded them.

2) Carter Burke sabotaged the mission by arranging for Gorman to be the commander. While this is not shown on screen, this was my own internal explanation as to why such an inexperienced officer was in charge. This had the effect of the force not taking strategically sound actions during the initial entry into the atmospheric processor.

3) While the possibility of exposure of the colonists was discussed during the mission briefing, it wasn't confirmed until the force arrived at LV-426. So they were kind of going in to an uncertain situation, which may have delayed the fundamentally sound tactic of nuking the site from orbit. They knew that they had lost contact with the colony, but until they got into the station it was difficult to determine why this had happened.

I think you raise valid points, but the axiom for horror movies applies: "There wouldn't be horror movies if folks didn't make bad decisions"

- Walter.

 

[TravisR]

Burke and the company want the marines (or really anyone involved) to be infected so why would they give them an accurate assessment of the dangers they face?

 

[John Dirk]

Regarding the Recent Take on the film Aliens:

Spoiler

While I can understand the criticism of similar mistakes being made in the sequel, I tend to excuse them for the following reasons:

1) Hubris. Cameron paints a portrait of very confident military personnel, esp. Vasquez and Drake. The soldiers had not encountered a species like the Xenomorphs which led to them underestimating the aliens. Ripley was a consultant who attempted to warn them, but their overconfidence blinded them.

2) Carter Burke sabotaged the mission by arranging for Gorman to be the commander. While this is not shown on screen, this was my own internal explanation as to why such an inexperienced officer was in charge. This had the effect of the force not taking strategically sound actions during the initial entry into the atmospheric processor.

3) While the possibility of exposure of the colonists was discussed during the mission briefing, it wasn't confirmed until the force arrived at LV-426. So they were kind of going in to an uncertain situation, which may have delayed the fundamentally sound tactic of nuking the site from orbit. They knew that they had lost contact with the colony, but until they got into the station it was difficult to determine why this had happened.

I think you raise valid points, but the axiom for horror movies applies: "There wouldn't be horror movies if folks didn't make bad decisions"

- Walter.

Excellent point, Walter, especially the last one. In case it wasn't clear in my original post, I consider this one of my all-time favorite films and Cameron is in my top 3 of best directors.

The spirit of this thread is to enjoy examining films we've viewed in earlier years and, after some time has passed, perhaps share a somewhat different interpretation.

 

[John Dirk]

Burke and the company want the marines (or really anyone involved) to be infected so why would they give them an accurate assessment of the dangers they face?

Agreed, Travis. That particular character behaved as expected, considering the sinister undertones of the film.

 

[Desslar]

I'm not sure about the interpretation of the story set-up above. The whole expedition is an off-the-books, seat-of-the-pants venture at Burke's discretion, since he was curious to see if there was any truth to Ripley's story in hopes of finding fame and fortune for himself. Since Burke is doing this covertly, he probably did not have access to many resources. So they're stuck with this group of undisciplined military misfits (apart from Apone and Hicks) as they're all Burke could quietly scrounge up on short notice. Possibly the green Gorman was even requested by Burke as someone who could be easily manipulated.

If Burke had fully believed the horrors described by Ripley in the beginning, he surely would have been less inclined to embark on such a risky mission without adequate support.

As for infecting Ripley and Newt, this is likely an idea Burke came up with on the fly in the middle of the mission, as he could not have known beforehand if it were possible. He certainly did not want the marines infected, as they were the only thing protecting him from a nasty death. Which he blundered into anyway.

 

[TravisR]

I think there may be some misinterpretation of the story set-up above. The whole expedition is an off-the-books, seat-of-the-pants venture at Burke's discretion, since he was curious to see if there was any truth to Ripley's story in hopes of finding fame and fortune for himself.

That seems like a big assumption with nothing in the movie supporting it. Granted, I'm also making assumptions about The Company's involvement but given the events of the first movie, I think it's fair to assume that Burke is acting at the behest of the company and they want the alien to study. Burke is just some middle level bureaucrat (no one high ranking is going to be taking a phone call from Ripley in the middle of the night) and they don't care if he or Ripley or a platoon of marines gets killed if it means they have a shot at getting a specimen.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

So, John asks a specific question in the opening post here but this then appears to become a thread about Aliens. I can give a couple of examples with regards to John's question but I think because this appears to be an Aliens thread, I will just comment on that here.

My thoughts on the film are it is a very solid sequel. I've never loved the film but I enjoy it. The problem I have with pretty much all Cameron films is the writing, which I generally think is bad to awful. I think his two best films are The Terminator and The Abyss and then Aliens would be third in my ranking of his work.

The main plot point problem I have with Aliens is Ripley agreeing to go back and why they would need her at all. She seems incredibly insignificant to the company's plans. I think I may have brought this up before, but I see only one reason to send her back to LV-426, and that is to kill her with the thought that they really did not want the crew of the Nostromo to come back alive and she beat the odds and now they want to ship her back to get rid of her.

Alien reveals that the crew was expendable and that the mission was to find the creature and return with it. Ripley knows this and so she has absolutely no reason, none, to agree to go back there on what she also knows is a near suicide mission. Now, we know the real reason they send Ripley back and she agrees to go is, well, this is a sequel and she was the final girl from the first film, hence keep the character. It is not done to make any sense in terms of story, it is to play to the audience.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

The whole expedition is an off-the-books, seat-of-the-pants venture at Burke's discretion, since he was curious to see if there was any truth to Ripley's story in hopes of finding fame and fortune for himself.

I don't think that makes sense based on what we learn in the first film. The company appears to know about the creature in the first film based on what Ash says, so they need no proof of Ripley's story. Ash is working toward the company goals in the first film and reveals that.

Burke seems to be conning Ripley into going back.

 

[Desslar]

That seems like a big assumption with nothing in the movie supporting it. Granted, I'm also making assumptions about The Company's involvement but given the events of the first movie, I think it's fair to assume that Burke is acting at the behest of the company and they want the alien to study. Burke is just some middle level bureaucrat (no one high ranking is going to be taking a phone call from Ripley in the middle of the night) and they don't care if he or Ripley or a platoon of marines gets killed if it means they have a shot at getting a specimen.

After all the high ranking company execs dismiss Ripley's story as nonsense, it is middle management Burke who sends the request to the colony to check out the derelict ship. He later tells Ripley he made a bad call. And to Ripley he explains not warning the colonists of the danger by saying:

"Okay, look. What if that ship didn't even exist, huh? Did you ever think about that? I didn't know! So now, if I went in and made a major security issue out of it, everybody steps in. Administration steps in, and there are no exclusive rights for anybody; nobody wins."

Again the emphasis seems to be on Burke making the decisions, and that he had to keep the mission low key.



If the company were overseeing the mission and wanted a specimen, that must mean they think Ripley's story could be true, and therefore the situation on LV426 is potentially extremely dangerous. They would want the mission to succeed or they wouldn't get any specimens, so it doesn't seem to make sense to send a small team of very questionable competence.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

In the first film, Alien, several things are revealed that indicate the company had a vested interest in what was on LV-426 and the creature.

1. Ripley in conversation with Dallas learns that Ash was a last minute addition to the crew of the Nostromo. Dallas had not worked with him before.

2. When Ripley gets access to ships computer she discovers that the company had made the mission about getting what was on LV-426 and that the crew was expendable.

3. Ash confirms this and his admiration for the creature. Ash turns out to be an android plant that is specifically put on the Nostromo to assure that the company gets what it wants from LV-426.

So, the company had knowledge of what was on the planet well in advance and this is why the medical officer Dallas normally worked with had been swapped out with Ash.

In Aliens, yes, Burke must then be doing company work and whatever he tells Ripley is likely not to be trusted, because his goal is to con her to accomplish the company's goals. He can't be operating in some rogue manner to benefit himself because the company knows what is at stake on LV-426 and what they would like to acquire. Burke is basically totally full of crap making up whatever he thinks Ripley might believe to protect the people he works for and likely are going to pay him a big bonus if he achieves whatever it is they want him to achieve.

 

[Walter Kittel]

The spirit of this thread is to enjoy examining films we've viewed in earlier years and, after some time has passed, perhaps share a somewhat different interpretation.

If the desire is to extend the discussion beyond Aliens I will add a few brief thoughts on the first John Wick film.

Spoiler

Regarding the two intrusions into Wick's lovely home in New Jersey.

First intrusion: While I understand that Iosef Tarasov and his crew are professional criminals it strikes me that considering his house, John Wick would probably be living in a gated community and would have a top notch home security system. So how did they catch him unaware? Because the plot demanded it?

Second intrusion: Here the considerations described above wouldn't matter, as following Wick's non-conversation with Viggo, he would be expecting some sort of action and was ready to begin dispensing some retribution. Although the questions of living (or not) in a gated community still apply.

I love the film and think it is a masterpiece of action choreography, but the first intrusion seems just a bit contrived.

- Walter.

 

[Walter Kittel]

In Aliens, yes, Burke must then be doing company work and whatever he tells Ripley is likely not to be trusted, because his goal is to con her to accomplish the company's goals. He can't be operating in some rogue manner to benefit himself because the company knows what is at stake on LV-426 and what they would like to acquire. Burke is basically totally full of crap making up whatever he thinks Ripley might believe to protect the people he works for and likely are going to pay him a big bonus if he achieves whatever it is they want him to achieve.

Yes, but 57 years have passed since the Nostromo went to LV-426. So it wouldn't exactly be contemporary knowledge for the Weyland-Yutani officials running the company. Burke likely had to dig around in the company archives for information regarding the Nostromo and its crew, so I can believe that he might be working off book.

- Walter.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Yes, but 57 years have passed since the Nostromo went to LV-426. So it wouldn't exactly be contemporary knowledge for the Weyland-Yutani officials running the company. Burke likely had to dig around in the company archives for information regarding the Nostromo and its crew, so I can believe that he might be working off book.

- Walter.

Well, I am not sure I would buy the idea that the company would lose track of a major potential asset that it was willing to waste whatever the value of the Nostromo, its cargo and crew on. Second, I would think, based on what is in the films, that these deep space missions take many years to accomplish and complete, so in the grand scheme, 57 years would not be that long. Burke being a middle management flunky, I don't think would be digging around in any archives, he would be much more likely to be being told what to do.

It seems the way this company works is to send people in, as an expendable asset, to see what might happen. It would seem they knew the mining colony was screwed before they sent them there but sent them to see what would happen. Then when contact was lost with the miners, they send in the marines to see what will happen with them, also expendable. Can they do battle with the creature/creatures or are they going to end up slaughtered as well.

I feel like the way the company works is to just use people as expendable to determine what they may actually have. Burke, I would assume, knows this. I just feel like the company is always meant to be several steps ahead of the "grunts" they are using to determine the value of their asset.

 

[Walter Kittel]

It seems the way this company works is to send people in, as an expendable asset, to see what might happen. It would seem they knew the mining colony was screwed before they sent them there but sent them to see what would happen. Then when contact was lost with the miners, they send in the marines to see what will happen with them, also expendable. Can they do battle with the creature/creatures or are they going to end up slaughtered as well.

You may be correct, and I certainly agree that the company views its employees as expendable assets (as was demonstrated in the first film.) Having said that I am not convinced that the colonists were sent to LV-426 with knowledge of what had transpired decades ago.

Burke says that there is sizable dollar amount involved in the atmospheric processing installation. If the company was conducting a 'see what happens' sort of operation, why invest that kind of capital?

Van Leuwen tells Ripley (paraphrasing) "There have been colonists there for over twenty years and they have never complained about any alien organism" If the knowledge of the Xenomorph was still an active piece of information, why wait twenty years to send the colonists to investigate the ship. Burke is the one who directs the colonists to the wrecked (Engineer?) ship, although it is possible that he was directed to do so by someone higher in rank - but this is never established.

To me it is more likely that the return of Ripley to Earth triggers the events of the second film by re-establishing knowledge of a Xenomorph.

- Walter.

 

[TravisR]

Yes, but 57 years have passed since the Nostromo went to LV-426. So it wouldn't exactly be contemporary knowledge for the Weyland-Yutani officials running the company. Burke likely had to dig around in the company archives for information regarding the Nostromo and its crew, so I can believe that he might be working off book.

If we're going with "might", Burke might secretly be in league with the aliens and they betray him or he might be an android (the deleted Burke cocoon scene isn't in either version of the movie so there's no onscreen proof that he's human). There's as much supporting those ideas as the idea that he's acting alone but what's established in the previous movie is that The Company wants the alien and I don't see any reason to think that changed during Aliens.

Since it was made after Aliens, invoking Alien 3 is a cheat but the end of that movie shows that The Company is still well aware of the alien and still very much want it.

 

[Desslar]

You may be correct, and I certainly agree that the company views its employees as expendable assets (as was demonstrated in the first film.) Having said that I am not convinced that the colonists were sent to LV-426 with knowledge of what had transpired decades ago.

Burke says that there is sizable dollar amount involved in the atmospheric processing installation. If the company was conducting a 'see what happens' sort of operation, why invest that kind of capital?

Van Leuwen tells Ripley (paraphrasing) "There have been colonists there for over twenty years and they have never complained about any alien organism" If the knowledge of the Xenomorph was still an active piece of information, why wait twenty years to send the colonists to investigate the ship. Burke is the one who directs the colonists to the wrecked (Engineer?) ship, although it is possible that he was directed to do so by someone higher in rank - but this is never established.

To me it is more likely that the return of Ripley to Earth triggers the events of the second film by re-establishing knowledge of a Xenomorph.

- Walter.

Right. Nothing happens concerning the xenomorphs in Aliens until Ripley's testimony triggers Burke to send some colonists to check out the derelict ship. If the company leadership had previously been aware of the ship's presence and significance, they surely would have checked it out many years ago.

 

[John Dirk]

If the desire is to extend the discussion beyond Aliens I will add a few brief thoughts on the first John Wick film.

Spoiler

Regarding the two intrusions into Wick's lovely home in New Jersey.

First intrusion: While I understand that Iosef Tarasov and his crew are professional criminals it strikes me that considering his house, John Wick would probably be living in a gated community and would have a top notch home security system. So how did they catch him unaware? Because the plot demanded it?

Second intrusion: Here the considerations described above wouldn't matter, as following Wick's non-conversation with Viggo, he would be expecting some sort of action and was ready to begin dispensing some retribution. Although the questions of living (or not) in a gated community still apply.

I love the film and think it is a masterpiece of action choreography, but the first intrusion seems just a bit contrived.

- Walter.

That was definitely the intent. I love movies and thought this would be a good vehicle to discuss them ad-nauseum, while allowing those of us inclined to possibly discover some new-to-us content to view.

We can continue discussing Aliens and, since it's a fair bet everyone has seen it, no harm in dropping the Spoiler tag, but for future films it would be appreciated if it's included.

 

[WillG]

The main plot point problem I have with Aliens is Ripley agreeing to go back and why they would need her at all. She seems incredibly insignificant to the company's plans. I think I may have brought this up before, but I see only one reason to send her back to LV-426, and that is to kill her with the thought that they really did not want the crew of the Nostromo to come back alive and she beat the odds and now they want to ship her back to get rid of her.

That was always my thought as well, the mission didn’t need her especially since the company got everything they were goring to learn from her already and that he reports were on disk for the marines to review. Why would Burke want her knowing very well that his goals and her goals were the exact opposite. The only logical conclusion is that Burke always intended for her to die on LV426 or be impregnated. If Ripley was never on the mission and say Burke was successful in bringing back a xenomorph, Ripley would of course alert every authority, so she had to be a member of the mission. As far as Ripley actually going, it makes perfect sense. She’s clearly suffering from severe PTSD and feels that wiping the species out will alleviate that. Also her life has been pretty wrecked. She lost her flight clearance, she’s subject to psychiatric evaluation with the company and she’s relegated to menial work, living in a shitty apartment, everyone she’s loved or known is likely dead. Burke offers her a chance to at least get her professional life back together

Of course the flaw is that how Burke planned to succeed in his mission. Anyone he managed to get impregnated and frozen for the trip back to earth would of course immediately report the circumstances upon being awakened

 

[John Dirk]

All,

When I created this thread the forum's new "look and feel" caused me to end up with the title "Aliens" instead of what I actually intended. I've changed that to reflect the threads original goal, which was to inspire discussion of any and all films you may have seen at different points in life and come away with perspectives which changed over time.

We've had some interesting commentary on the lead-off film but I'm hoping someone will introduce a new one at this point.