Spero D
Second Unit
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2000
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- 487
Some thoughts about this ep I agree with-
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and
and lastly
True that.
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[/quote]
and
and lastly
True that.
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The Good Wife season 2 thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Patrick Sun
- Start date
Adam Lenhardt
Senior HTF Member
Where did these quotes come from, Spero? Google says CultureMob and AV Club.
I thought this episode was great, and the casting of Miranda Cosgrove as the troubled preteen idol was essential to that. It would have been easy to stunt cast a genuinely troubled Lindsey Lohan or Demi Lovato to play a thinly fictionalized version of themselves, but instead they went with one who genuinely does have a squeaky clean image. The idea that the overblown lifestyle is an act to sell an image is a fascinating one; it would have been easy to make Sloan a mouthy little bitch behind close doors, but instead they went the opposite way. Sloan was polite and well mannered with Alicia, with the bad behavior and catty tweets purely for public consumption. No one wants to see these girls that the gossip rags chew up and spit out as children, but this episode forced us to do that. The scene where Alicia squeezes Sloan's shoulder as Sloan is about to break down is heartbreaking, because you get the impression that her own mother has never done such basic motherly act. The beat where Grace and her friend meet Sloan, and Grace's friend tries to proselytize her was very melancholy, as we see the reflection between 14-year-olds that actually are children and this girl not very much older who hasn't been a kid in a very long time.
Even more striking was the subplot with the church's endorsement. The connection between churches -- especially intercity black churches -- and racial politics is one of those third rails of public discussion. Pastor Isaiah Easton views his church as first and foremost a religious community, which is why he usually refrained from making endorsements and chose to endorse Peter when his hand was forced. His father Jeremiah views the church as first and foremost a political powerbase, and that means advancing African American candidates -- however much or however little their religious conviction. Wendy Scott-Carr (never just Wendy, always Wendy Scott-Carr) understood the latter dynamic, figured that lip service to the church's mission would be enough to lock up the endorsement despite Peter being in regular attendance, and was outraged when it wasn't. So she went over Isaiah's head to the former pastor, who didn't care much much his son being his own man once an issue important to him came along, and got him booted. Depending on how quietly Isaiah goes into the night, she's risked tarnishing her squeaky clean public interest.
In a way, people like Wendy Scott-Carr are worse than people like Peter and Childs. Peter and Childs are scumbags who do horrible things to advance their careers, but they don't pretend otherwise. You know what you're getting with them, for better or for worse. Wendy Scott-Carr plays the part of an angel, while illegally leaking subpoena transcripts to the press and fracturing congregations for her own personal gain. The problem with building a campaign around such an image is that it only takes one scandal to bring the whole thing down. For better or worse, voters expect dirty laundry from Peter and Childs. Their campaigns can absorb any dirty laundry that surfaces. Wendy Scott-Carr's whole campaign is built around being better than machine politicians like Peter and Childs; if the choice is between three sleazebags, she loses.
And I'm not a 40+ female who likes Alicia's kids quite a bit. Their viewpoints provide a unique window into how Peter and Alicia appear. The contrast between what Grace and her friend "knew" about Sloan and what we came to learn about Sloan is a perfect example of an understanding we'd never have gotten without Alicia's children.
I thought this episode was great, and the casting of Miranda Cosgrove as the troubled preteen idol was essential to that. It would have been easy to stunt cast a genuinely troubled Lindsey Lohan or Demi Lovato to play a thinly fictionalized version of themselves, but instead they went with one who genuinely does have a squeaky clean image. The idea that the overblown lifestyle is an act to sell an image is a fascinating one; it would have been easy to make Sloan a mouthy little bitch behind close doors, but instead they went the opposite way. Sloan was polite and well mannered with Alicia, with the bad behavior and catty tweets purely for public consumption. No one wants to see these girls that the gossip rags chew up and spit out as children, but this episode forced us to do that. The scene where Alicia squeezes Sloan's shoulder as Sloan is about to break down is heartbreaking, because you get the impression that her own mother has never done such basic motherly act. The beat where Grace and her friend meet Sloan, and Grace's friend tries to proselytize her was very melancholy, as we see the reflection between 14-year-olds that actually are children and this girl not very much older who hasn't been a kid in a very long time.
Even more striking was the subplot with the church's endorsement. The connection between churches -- especially intercity black churches -- and racial politics is one of those third rails of public discussion. Pastor Isaiah Easton views his church as first and foremost a religious community, which is why he usually refrained from making endorsements and chose to endorse Peter when his hand was forced. His father Jeremiah views the church as first and foremost a political powerbase, and that means advancing African American candidates -- however much or however little their religious conviction. Wendy Scott-Carr (never just Wendy, always Wendy Scott-Carr) understood the latter dynamic, figured that lip service to the church's mission would be enough to lock up the endorsement despite Peter being in regular attendance, and was outraged when it wasn't. So she went over Isaiah's head to the former pastor, who didn't care much much his son being his own man once an issue important to him came along, and got him booted. Depending on how quietly Isaiah goes into the night, she's risked tarnishing her squeaky clean public interest.
In a way, people like Wendy Scott-Carr are worse than people like Peter and Childs. Peter and Childs are scumbags who do horrible things to advance their careers, but they don't pretend otherwise. You know what you're getting with them, for better or for worse. Wendy Scott-Carr plays the part of an angel, while illegally leaking subpoena transcripts to the press and fracturing congregations for her own personal gain. The problem with building a campaign around such an image is that it only takes one scandal to bring the whole thing down. For better or worse, voters expect dirty laundry from Peter and Childs. Their campaigns can absorb any dirty laundry that surfaces. Wendy Scott-Carr's whole campaign is built around being better than machine politicians like Peter and Childs; if the choice is between three sleazebags, she loses.
And I'm not a 40+ female who likes Alicia's kids quite a bit. Their viewpoints provide a unique window into how Peter and Alicia appear. The contrast between what Grace and her friend "knew" about Sloan and what we came to learn about Sloan is a perfect example of an understanding we'd never have gotten without Alicia's children.
Spero D
Second Unit
- Joined
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- Messages
- 487
AVClub was one as I read the reviews after the ep and agreed with those sentiments I quoted.
Adam Lenhardt
Senior HTF Member
Gotcha. I was just confused at first, thinking you were quoting previous posters in this thread.
Adam, great analysis. Loved this episode; so many critical transitional events took place: the endorsement, of course. The power plays within the firm. Wil seemingly clueless abou all of it. Peter telling the DNC to take a flying leap and pursue his campaign. Eli, a shark for hire remaining loyal. And, the most crucial emotional riptide: Peter still doesn't understand that Alicia *likes* working. He still thinks it's just until he's back on his feet. And I not only enjoy her kids but think they're essential to the character of he show. Without them, Alicias only a lifeless lawyer who has no loyalty but to the firm. They are emotional center. She may never love or trust Peter again, but Grace & Zack keep her tied to the family and help keep her grounded to her principles. And they limit who she can be at the firm. Even as their stories ebb and flow, theyre important framing to the shows structure
Adam Lenhardt
Senior HTF Member
The kicker is, he wasn't clueless about it. He knew invading David Lee's fiefdom within the firm would be disastrous, and tried to stop Bond before the problem metastasized. Diane cut him off at the knees and threw her lot in with Bond. Then, when the inevitable happened and Lee started putting feelers out about breaking out as a partner in a new firm, Diane back stabs both Bond and Will. I can understand her wanting to get back at Will for not having her back, but this move is suicidal. Lockhart, Gardner and Bond is barely surviving as it is. If she fractures the firm in two, neither Lockhart and Lee nor Gardner and Bond would survive for long. There are times to be bold and there are times to play it safe. Diane wants to be bold when playing it safe is the only move that ends in survival.
Yep. It was an interesting sequence, with Diane first clearly repaying Wil for his disloyalty and then dodging the mess and working from a different front. Will's nonchalance with Bond...soothing Bond? Tyre lack if concern? Or directorial error? We know Diane feels threatened and on the outside of a two-man Old Boys Club. How far will she take it? How much damage will she cause?
I think this has been brewing for a while. I think that the idea that "it's suicide, they are barely making it.." You have to remember, they just came off a 35M win (so 8M to the firm. What she is clearly thinking is that family law is a consistent breadwinner. And, combined with her take off that split, plus shares in the company, she would have a smaller firm with a whole lot less overhead. I hear this argument from attorneys as they dissolve offices often ... "Oh, sure, I won't be making any more really, but my costs will go way down, and it will be more what I want".
Now, as to the episode, I thought this episode was brilliant. I thought it was interesting to see how the kids go through their own rationalization of how they deal with the situation. And I liked the daughter grasping the difference between how "cool" the scandal news was about someone else, and how it played out against her family, and I thought that was a great moment.
I thought the Church plot was a stunner. It was obvious that Florrick had spoken too soon; he had let Wendy know in time for her to bring pressure down on the board to change their mind. I think that could turn into a major point, but it is definitely clear she is a candidate who plays hardball. I liked it that Peter's campaign manager was smart enough to do the "I don't tell" but Peter couldn't resist tooting his horn.
I think the other thing that is ongoing is that Cary, the prosecutor, is obviously not a bad guy. He has his own set of very strong moral views on things, and he's always been a law & order type personality. This show almost flips the Law & Order setup, showing you how the defense really feels when we'd see the same gambits played in those shows by the prosecutor, here we see them from the side of the defense. I also really enjoyed the entire storyline regarding the need for people to pay respect to what was going on and stop "tweeting the trial". Great aside to how much we've given up the importance of events to reduce them to soundbytes - and it's not a new point, the show repeatedly comes back to the concept that soundbytes often tell us nothing of the story.
Now, as to the episode, I thought this episode was brilliant. I thought it was interesting to see how the kids go through their own rationalization of how they deal with the situation. And I liked the daughter grasping the difference between how "cool" the scandal news was about someone else, and how it played out against her family, and I thought that was a great moment.
I thought the Church plot was a stunner. It was obvious that Florrick had spoken too soon; he had let Wendy know in time for her to bring pressure down on the board to change their mind. I think that could turn into a major point, but it is definitely clear she is a candidate who plays hardball. I liked it that Peter's campaign manager was smart enough to do the "I don't tell" but Peter couldn't resist tooting his horn.
I think the other thing that is ongoing is that Cary, the prosecutor, is obviously not a bad guy. He has his own set of very strong moral views on things, and he's always been a law & order type personality. This show almost flips the Law & Order setup, showing you how the defense really feels when we'd see the same gambits played in those shows by the prosecutor, here we see them from the side of the defense. I also really enjoyed the entire storyline regarding the need for people to pay respect to what was going on and stop "tweeting the trial". Great aside to how much we've given up the importance of events to reduce them to soundbytes - and it's not a new point, the show repeatedly comes back to the concept that soundbytes often tell us nothing of the story.
I forgot my favorite part: the dead-on mimic of the NMA animations! Not one, but two! It was so good, I believe they hired those people to make the animations just for that episode. TV normally does web and computers so badly, or at least so weirdly stylized for the sake of the visuals, that it was great to see something spot on.
I'm not sure I follow. Florrick told the DNC, but they wouldn't have told Wendy's campaing. And Eli did tell Wendy that they had the nomination. But, yes, the father coming in, with the church board, to kick the son out over the politics was stunning.
There have been episodes I liked better for the core story. But this one was marvelous in how it wove so many story elements together, propelling almost every major plotline forward.
I'm not sure I follow. Florrick told the DNC, but they wouldn't have told Wendy's campaing. And Eli did tell Wendy that they had the nomination. But, yes, the father coming in, with the church board, to kick the son out over the politics was stunning.
There have been episodes I liked better for the core story. But this one was marvelous in how it wove so many story elements together, propelling almost every major plotline forward.
This show goes week after week hitting high notes, keeping track of plot, and then managing to work old storylines back in through creative ways.
Alicia discovers that Will left a second message, and she doesn't have it... and she has to confront Will about it, but can't.. and how does she find out? By listening through wiretaps. Not only that, but they use the rules regarding wiretaps to make it both effective and interesting as Alicia finds out that Ely, their campaign manager, is also on the tap list. The feds have swung a big, wide net in hopes of seemingly catching somebody, anybody. And when inadvertently they hear a White House staffer - which isn't unusual considering they are in Chicago and it's Obama's home turf, the show pulls absolutely no punches and doesn't wuss out, they play the hard lawyer card and say "we're going to spook the feds by threatening to start the subpeonas against the White House staffers, knowing if we make the kitchen hot enough, they won't stay". That's a tough one for a lot of shows, but they took it. There are lots of times we like to leave political reality out of the mix, but this was a good one that was played in such a way to seem both real, and not a cheap shot at any real office holder. More a statement of "this is how it would work".
With so many different storylines, it was good that some of the lower storylines really started to pay off; Becca obviously went out of her way to work to sabotage the relationship that is brewing with Alicia's son by throwing his new girlfriend under the bus, using his grandmothers phobias against it. And the kids poking fun at Child's son, who does appear to be a jerk, backfires and the Childs campaign comes gunning for the Florrick's daughter.
Meanwhile, again, Wendy stands out from the crowd and gets a free pass. The B story also got big coverage; Pastor Issiah did endorse Peter... but he's lost his church, and the church still endorses Wendy. A cheaper show would have had something immediately on these tapes showing she knew of these kickbacks, but here, she sails through again, seemingly untouched. Wendy, who we know plays hardball, is apparently still above the fray and coasting.
The breakup of the firm is seen as a way to preempt getting pushed out, and her strategy is a decent one. Move on with clients you can get and take the most profitable portion. While she was planning, Will coming to her and asking for her help was an bit of good interpersonal communication.. you had to think internally she was snickering at the fact he needed her, and soon, he wouldn't have her at all for these jobs. The wry smile she gave him with "OK" was all the aside the audience needed to convey a lot of that.
And now we know the PIs are going to play hardball. There is something just wrong... with our new PI. He's apparently tried to frame Kalinda, and she knows it. Now the question is how far does Blake go in trying to change the outcomes.. we were implied that a witness was beaten because we assume he gave the wronged husband was tipped off.. or did Blake do it himself? But the planting of Kalinda's fingerprints was a clear sign he's out to eliminate the competition.
The writers on this show should be commended for one of the deepest multi-level stories on broadcast TV (non-cable), and one of the best legal dramas in years. This season has really been fantastic (IMHO)
Alicia discovers that Will left a second message, and she doesn't have it... and she has to confront Will about it, but can't.. and how does she find out? By listening through wiretaps. Not only that, but they use the rules regarding wiretaps to make it both effective and interesting as Alicia finds out that Ely, their campaign manager, is also on the tap list. The feds have swung a big, wide net in hopes of seemingly catching somebody, anybody. And when inadvertently they hear a White House staffer - which isn't unusual considering they are in Chicago and it's Obama's home turf, the show pulls absolutely no punches and doesn't wuss out, they play the hard lawyer card and say "we're going to spook the feds by threatening to start the subpeonas against the White House staffers, knowing if we make the kitchen hot enough, they won't stay". That's a tough one for a lot of shows, but they took it. There are lots of times we like to leave political reality out of the mix, but this was a good one that was played in such a way to seem both real, and not a cheap shot at any real office holder. More a statement of "this is how it would work".
With so many different storylines, it was good that some of the lower storylines really started to pay off; Becca obviously went out of her way to work to sabotage the relationship that is brewing with Alicia's son by throwing his new girlfriend under the bus, using his grandmothers phobias against it. And the kids poking fun at Child's son, who does appear to be a jerk, backfires and the Childs campaign comes gunning for the Florrick's daughter.
Meanwhile, again, Wendy stands out from the crowd and gets a free pass. The B story also got big coverage; Pastor Issiah did endorse Peter... but he's lost his church, and the church still endorses Wendy. A cheaper show would have had something immediately on these tapes showing she knew of these kickbacks, but here, she sails through again, seemingly untouched. Wendy, who we know plays hardball, is apparently still above the fray and coasting.
The breakup of the firm is seen as a way to preempt getting pushed out, and her strategy is a decent one. Move on with clients you can get and take the most profitable portion. While she was planning, Will coming to her and asking for her help was an bit of good interpersonal communication.. you had to think internally she was snickering at the fact he needed her, and soon, he wouldn't have her at all for these jobs. The wry smile she gave him with "OK" was all the aside the audience needed to convey a lot of that.
And now we know the PIs are going to play hardball. There is something just wrong... with our new PI. He's apparently tried to frame Kalinda, and she knows it. Now the question is how far does Blake go in trying to change the outcomes.. we were implied that a witness was beaten because we assume he gave the wronged husband was tipped off.. or did Blake do it himself? But the planting of Kalinda's fingerprints was a clear sign he's out to eliminate the competition.
The writers on this show should be commended for one of the deepest multi-level stories on broadcast TV (non-cable), and one of the best legal dramas in years. This season has really been fantastic (IMHO)
Adam Lenhardt
Senior HTF Member
Great summary, Matt!
What suprised me was the implication that many of the people inside the Obama White House are tied to people gunning for Peter. It's no secret that Obama brought many of the real life Chicago Democratic machine pols with him to Washington, but I don't think I've ever seen a fictional TV show cast fictional aspersions against a real white house. This show plays with the line between the factual and the fictional in a way that is dangerous but utterly fascinating to watch. If this show has any message, it's that the rot infecting our political system is both pervasive and intrinsic. If JFK were on the show, we wouldn't see the New Frontier visionary and war hero who pointed us toward the moon and ushered in the 1960s. Instead we'd see the political scion of a family of gansters and bootleggers who channeled his family's ill-begotten gains into the Boston Democratic machine and ultimately rise to its top and seize the presidency from the far more qualified vice president, who cheated on his wife the entire time while doing it. That that far more qualified vice president would turn out to be Richard Nixon, the man who disgraced the presidency, would only further prove the show's point. If this show has a second message, it's that everything is political.
It's hard to say whether Childs's son is a jerk, or if he's already taken a spin on the Becca Merry-Go-Round and has finally wised up. Becca is the closest to pure evil of any character on this show. Much like the Joker in the last Batman movie, she seems to do what she does simply to watch the world burn. It's unfortunate that as a result of her suckering Zach into making that awful video, Grace is the one who gets hurt. Frankly, I don't blame the Childs campaign for being angry. I don't think Eli does either.
I can't wait to see what happens when she stops coasting. She's had the advantage of knowing the chess board and planning out all of her moves well in advance. She caught the campaigns for Childs and Florrick completely off guard, and has taken advantage of that since. But eventually, one or both of their campaigns are going to come to terms with the new dynamics of the race and pull off something she doesn't expect. It'll be interesting to see how she reacts to it once she does. The interesting thing about Wendy Scott-Carr is that she almost has the Sarah Palin effect; she comes across as vulnerable enough that any attacks against her only strengthen her candidacy.
In this week, Will finally started to get an inkling of what's going down. What's fascinating is that we haven't seen him make a move yet. The assumption is that Will will take up Bond's offer and Diane will go off into the night with David Lee and half the client list. It's entirely possible that he'll make a counter-proposal to one or both of them that changes up everyone's plans. Somehow, I don't see the firm fracturing because the show already has a hard enough time finding ways to keep Cary tied into the story. I don't think they'd want to lose Will as a character and I don't think they'd want to lose Diane as a character. Presumably Kalinda would go with whichever firm Alicia went to, but a lot of the show's interest come from the very different but equally capable personalities in the corner offices. I would miss either character if they were knocked down to recurring status. This show's never been overly cautious, however, so I wouldn't put it past them. I still view Diane's ploy as suicidal.
To be fair, there is something wrong with both of our PIs. The difference is that Blake's dysfunction is downright terrifying, while Kalinda's is more benevolent. Kalinda will use anyone and anything for her own benefit without remorse. I wouldn't doubt that Kalinda would throw even Alicia under the bus if it served her own self interest. But she isn't willfully destructive. She likes Alicia and Cary, and she's happy to help them out as long as it doesn't hinder her own needs. And she never causes more trouble than is absolutely necessary to achieve her ends. She's cold-blooded, but logical. Blake is more of a traditional psychopath; while he too shows no remorse for his actions, he's not bound by the social norms of society like Kalinda is. He pays them lip service as required to advance his own interest, but he causes way more trouble than is necessary to achieve his own ends. He's a bully who enjoys violence and intimidation. Kalinda refuses to be bullied. What happens when an irresistable force meets an immovable object? We're about to find out.
I would argue that it's one of the deepest multi-level stories on TV, broadcast cable or otherwise. That they're able to achieve similar levels of complexity to the HBOs and the Showtimes while observing FCC standards and practices and fitting inside preset commerical breaks is nothing short of extraordinary.
It was my interpretation that the wiretaps were actually aimed at Peter, and that the alderman just got snagged as part of the wide net. It makes sense, because Peter is a danger to the machine. That's why he was kneecapped in the first place, and that's why he's being investigated now. It was fascinating watching Alicia discover all of these things that would be essential for Peter to know, and being barred by confidentiality rules from revealing them.
What suprised me was the implication that many of the people inside the Obama White House are tied to people gunning for Peter. It's no secret that Obama brought many of the real life Chicago Democratic machine pols with him to Washington, but I don't think I've ever seen a fictional TV show cast fictional aspersions against a real white house. This show plays with the line between the factual and the fictional in a way that is dangerous but utterly fascinating to watch. If this show has any message, it's that the rot infecting our political system is both pervasive and intrinsic. If JFK were on the show, we wouldn't see the New Frontier visionary and war hero who pointed us toward the moon and ushered in the 1960s. Instead we'd see the political scion of a family of gansters and bootleggers who channeled his family's ill-begotten gains into the Boston Democratic machine and ultimately rise to its top and seize the presidency from the far more qualified vice president, who cheated on his wife the entire time while doing it. That that far more qualified vice president would turn out to be Richard Nixon, the man who disgraced the presidency, would only further prove the show's point. If this show has a second message, it's that everything is political.
It's hard to say whether Childs's son is a jerk, or if he's already taken a spin on the Becca Merry-Go-Round and has finally wised up. Becca is the closest to pure evil of any character on this show. Much like the Joker in the last Batman movie, she seems to do what she does simply to watch the world burn. It's unfortunate that as a result of her suckering Zach into making that awful video, Grace is the one who gets hurt. Frankly, I don't blame the Childs campaign for being angry. I don't think Eli does either.
I can't wait to see what happens when she stops coasting. She's had the advantage of knowing the chess board and planning out all of her moves well in advance. She caught the campaigns for Childs and Florrick completely off guard, and has taken advantage of that since. But eventually, one or both of their campaigns are going to come to terms with the new dynamics of the race and pull off something she doesn't expect. It'll be interesting to see how she reacts to it once she does. The interesting thing about Wendy Scott-Carr is that she almost has the Sarah Palin effect; she comes across as vulnerable enough that any attacks against her only strengthen her candidacy.
In this week, Will finally started to get an inkling of what's going down. What's fascinating is that we haven't seen him make a move yet. The assumption is that Will will take up Bond's offer and Diane will go off into the night with David Lee and half the client list. It's entirely possible that he'll make a counter-proposal to one or both of them that changes up everyone's plans. Somehow, I don't see the firm fracturing because the show already has a hard enough time finding ways to keep Cary tied into the story. I don't think they'd want to lose Will as a character and I don't think they'd want to lose Diane as a character. Presumably Kalinda would go with whichever firm Alicia went to, but a lot of the show's interest come from the very different but equally capable personalities in the corner offices. I would miss either character if they were knocked down to recurring status. This show's never been overly cautious, however, so I wouldn't put it past them. I still view Diane's ploy as suicidal.
To be fair, there is something wrong with both of our PIs. The difference is that Blake's dysfunction is downright terrifying, while Kalinda's is more benevolent. Kalinda will use anyone and anything for her own benefit without remorse. I wouldn't doubt that Kalinda would throw even Alicia under the bus if it served her own self interest. But she isn't willfully destructive. She likes Alicia and Cary, and she's happy to help them out as long as it doesn't hinder her own needs. And she never causes more trouble than is absolutely necessary to achieve her ends. She's cold-blooded, but logical. Blake is more of a traditional psychopath; while he too shows no remorse for his actions, he's not bound by the social norms of society like Kalinda is. He pays them lip service as required to advance his own interest, but he causes way more trouble than is necessary to achieve his own ends. He's a bully who enjoys violence and intimidation. Kalinda refuses to be bullied. What happens when an irresistable force meets an immovable object? We're about to find out.
I would argue that it's one of the deepest multi-level stories on TV, broadcast cable or otherwise. That they're able to achieve similar levels of complexity to the HBOs and the Showtimes while observing FCC standards and practices and fitting inside preset commerical breaks is nothing short of extraordinary.
NeilO
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A great episode. I really can't see the firm splitting again. It would seem to be a bit much and there should be some event that prevents it from happening. Of course it could be leading up to a surprise death.
Will Zach own up to the video now that an attack has been made on his sister? Becca's manipulation was impressive to watch.
I was surprised that we didn't see Wendy Scott-Carr in the episode, though her influence was well felt.
Will Zach own up to the video now that an attack has been made on his sister? Becca's manipulation was impressive to watch.
I was surprised that we didn't see Wendy Scott-Carr in the episode, though her influence was well felt.
PhilipG
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That was an exceptional episode of an extraordinarily-good show. The Good Wife is the best "serious" show since The West Wing (in my opinion). In fact, I prefer it to TWW in some ways because the writing is very clever without ever being self-consciously-smartypants-clever. And I love all the characters. The Kalinda-Blake dynamic, in particular, is fascinating and about to go nuclear, it seems.
As for the firm... Maybe it will split and Cary will rejoin either Diane's firm or Will's (whichever one doesn't get Alicia)? Then we can have some episodes with both firms going head-to-head in the courtroom, allowing all four principal protagonists to be centre-stage at once.
As for the firm... Maybe it will split and Cary will rejoin either Diane's firm or Will's (whichever one doesn't get Alicia)? Then we can have some episodes with both firms going head-to-head in the courtroom, allowing all four principal protagonists to be centre-stage at once.
Originally Posted by PhilipG
That was an exceptional episode of an extraordinarily-good show. The Good Wife is the best "serious" show since The West Wing (in my opinion). In fact, I prefer it to TWW in some ways because the writing is very clever without ever being self-consciously-smartypants-clever. And I love all the characters. The Kalinda-Blake dynamic, in particular, is fascinating and about to go nuclear, it seems.
As for the firm... Maybe it will split and Cary will rejoin either Diane's firm or Will's (whichever one doesn't get Alicia)? Then we can have some episodes with both firms going head-to-head in the courtroom, allowing all four principal protagonists to be centre-stage at once.
I've wondered this too... if a split in the firm wouldn't put Cary and Alicia back in the same office...
Another excellent episode. We knew Alicia would learn about the missing second message from Wil. But to learn about it from wiretaps?!? And then to lose it through that (freaky) "minimization"? Wow.
I'll say it again: teenage boys are so stupid. Becca is toxic. Why is Zach still spending time with her?
Kalinda was playing a game. Blake is neutralizing a threat.
I'll say it again: teenage boys are so stupid. Becca is toxic. Why is Zach still spending time with her?
Blake isn't trying to frame Kalinda per se: He's created evidence to frame her for the crime in order to extort her so she'll back off. Kalinda is good. But Blake is masterful. He used a "fixer" judo to play her attack on him, smashing his car windows with a baseball bat, against her, by now having a weapon with her fingerprints on it to attack someone else. We just learned that he is much better, dangerously better, than Kalinda is at this "game". And now Kalinda fully appreciates that.
Kalinda was playing a game. Blake is neutralizing a threat.
Adam Lenhardt
Senior HTF Member
Stellar episode tonight; I'm surprised they dumped it into the middle of the holiday season repeat-filled no man's land. If I hadn't checked, I would have assumed it was a repeat tonight.
Wonderful examination of a death penalty case from all avenues of attack, from a moral argument (Alicia's plea that the legal system has to get it right when a man's life is at stake) to the technicalities (the expiration of the sodium thiopental). At the heart of capital punishment is a tension between a constitution written when executions were common and often public, a constitution that laid out explicit terms for capital punishment in its fifth amendment that were extended to all persons under US jurisdiction by its fourteen amendment, and a prohibition in its eighth amendment against "cruel and unusual punishment" when only a handful of countries still authorize capital punishment.
The eery thing about the episode was that it demonstrated that the condemned's appeal is procedurally the same as all other appeals of criminal sentences following conviction. Like all appeals of criminal convictions, the deck is stacked against the petitioner; prior to conviction, you are considered innocent. Following conviction, you are considered proven guilty until demonstrated otherwise. New evidence generally cannot be introduced, even evidence that could raise doubt on conviction, unless it was demonstrably unavailable at trial -- like the arson expert's testimony in light of changed science. The actions of a lawyer are taken on the defendant's behalf, so any mistakes made by the lawyer are considered mistakes made by the defendant unless the defendant can show that he went to great lengths to express a different intent. So if a defendant's lawyer does a shitty job and leaves something important out, he won't get to introduce it in an appeal. All of these things are administrative necessities to keep the courts from becoming totally overwhelmed with appeals, frivolous and otherwise. But in capital cases, you're talking about a man's life. Only in the emotions and behavior of the participants in this episode did we see how different it feels under those circumstances.
I actually liked that the original trial was clean procedurally. He's not challenging his appeal because his original lawyer screwed up, the cops contaminated the crime scene, or the prosecution pulled anything scummy. By the end of the episode we still haven't been convinced that he's innocent of the crime he's been accused of. All we've been convinced of is that in light of the current science, there is a reasonable doubt that needs to be further investigated.
I really enjoyed seeing the reactions of Alicia and her mother-in-law to the discovery that Grace has been proselytized to Christianity by her friend. Jackie was openly hostile to the idea and, I think, a bit threatened by it. Alicia was shocked, but seemed to be withholding judgment. I enjoyed seeing Peter find solace in faith, but I really like that Grace came to it independently of him. At the same time, she has a young, previously non-devout teenager's perspective on Christianity. She's seen her friend pray for desired outcomes, and seen those desired outcomes come to be. Will her faith survive the first big prayer that doesn't come to pass?
I also really enjoyed the debate. Most politicians would have have said their marriages are great, whatever the truth behind closed doors. Peter refused to put words in Alicia's mouth, and when pressed upon it told the moderator it was none of his fucking business. I trust a politician who tells me to butt out a lot more than one who tells me what he thinks I want to hear. I don't think anyone's going to confuse Peter with a white knight, but it's refreshing that he's not trying to present himself as one.
It was also nice to see the law firm drop all of the petty games and machinations for a moment and band together to give this guy one final push. This death row appeal isn't a big moneymaker. All of those dollars in manpower could have been much more profitably utilized on other cases. But at least for this law firm a man's life still matters more than the firm's balance sheet. That's a pretty optimistic note from a pretty cynical show.
Favorite part of the episode, though? Zach being such a hopeless teenage boy upon meeting Kalinda. Here's a polished, confident exotic woman, completely unlike the stiffs his parents usually associate with, who wields her sexuality like a broadsword. The dichotomy between him standing there spellbound in a puddle of his own drool and her amused condescension cracked me up.
Wonderful examination of a death penalty case from all avenues of attack, from a moral argument (Alicia's plea that the legal system has to get it right when a man's life is at stake) to the technicalities (the expiration of the sodium thiopental). At the heart of capital punishment is a tension between a constitution written when executions were common and often public, a constitution that laid out explicit terms for capital punishment in its fifth amendment that were extended to all persons under US jurisdiction by its fourteen amendment, and a prohibition in its eighth amendment against "cruel and unusual punishment" when only a handful of countries still authorize capital punishment.
The eery thing about the episode was that it demonstrated that the condemned's appeal is procedurally the same as all other appeals of criminal sentences following conviction. Like all appeals of criminal convictions, the deck is stacked against the petitioner; prior to conviction, you are considered innocent. Following conviction, you are considered proven guilty until demonstrated otherwise. New evidence generally cannot be introduced, even evidence that could raise doubt on conviction, unless it was demonstrably unavailable at trial -- like the arson expert's testimony in light of changed science. The actions of a lawyer are taken on the defendant's behalf, so any mistakes made by the lawyer are considered mistakes made by the defendant unless the defendant can show that he went to great lengths to express a different intent. So if a defendant's lawyer does a shitty job and leaves something important out, he won't get to introduce it in an appeal. All of these things are administrative necessities to keep the courts from becoming totally overwhelmed with appeals, frivolous and otherwise. But in capital cases, you're talking about a man's life. Only in the emotions and behavior of the participants in this episode did we see how different it feels under those circumstances.
I actually liked that the original trial was clean procedurally. He's not challenging his appeal because his original lawyer screwed up, the cops contaminated the crime scene, or the prosecution pulled anything scummy. By the end of the episode we still haven't been convinced that he's innocent of the crime he's been accused of. All we've been convinced of is that in light of the current science, there is a reasonable doubt that needs to be further investigated.
I really enjoyed seeing the reactions of Alicia and her mother-in-law to the discovery that Grace has been proselytized to Christianity by her friend. Jackie was openly hostile to the idea and, I think, a bit threatened by it. Alicia was shocked, but seemed to be withholding judgment. I enjoyed seeing Peter find solace in faith, but I really like that Grace came to it independently of him. At the same time, she has a young, previously non-devout teenager's perspective on Christianity. She's seen her friend pray for desired outcomes, and seen those desired outcomes come to be. Will her faith survive the first big prayer that doesn't come to pass?
I also really enjoyed the debate. Most politicians would have have said their marriages are great, whatever the truth behind closed doors. Peter refused to put words in Alicia's mouth, and when pressed upon it told the moderator it was none of his fucking business. I trust a politician who tells me to butt out a lot more than one who tells me what he thinks I want to hear. I don't think anyone's going to confuse Peter with a white knight, but it's refreshing that he's not trying to present himself as one.
It was also nice to see the law firm drop all of the petty games and machinations for a moment and band together to give this guy one final push. This death row appeal isn't a big moneymaker. All of those dollars in manpower could have been much more profitably utilized on other cases. But at least for this law firm a man's life still matters more than the firm's balance sheet. That's a pretty optimistic note from a pretty cynical show.
Favorite part of the episode, though? Zach being such a hopeless teenage boy upon meeting Kalinda. Here's a polished, confident exotic woman, completely unlike the stiffs his parents usually associate with, who wields her sexuality like a broadsword. The dichotomy between him standing there spellbound in a puddle of his own drool and her amused condescension cracked me up.
I thought every moment in this episode was solid. I think what happened was you got a look inside their private thoughts. Even though we know the firm is on the verge of splitting apart, we got to see that all members of the firm were interested in doing the right thing here, and that they had come together to do it.
What really gets me about this show, again, is the use of small moments - a few seconds here, a few there, to still give you an eye into the story. Peter's debate gave us a chance to see that even he isn't sure where his marriage stands, and doesn't feel like answering the question. To the public, it may have seemed like a bombastic show of 'This is private!' which may net him some support. But privately, Alicia's look to the TV and sinking stomach told you her fear was: 'he is going to paint me into a corner, and speak for me'. The message she received, with a brief smile afterward was basically: maybe he really does understand this isn't over yet, and is taking this seriously... and a little bit of: and he is giving me the room to leave, if this doesn't work. 'If you love something, set it free...'
I agree Adam, with the fact that the attorneys involved didn't know if he was guilty or innocent - the original case was handled properly, etc. I think Will was on his way out of town because he had concluded that they wouldn't win, didn't want to think about it, and had asked not be contacted. He wasn't in a downbeat mood, sullen or sick to his stomach about it - he was riding out of town with the top down in his car, good music on the radio, big smile on his face. He had the confidence of knowing he had done everything that they could. It was the phone call that tipped them. At that moment, his attitude changed - it wasn't about whether he believed he was innocent or guilty, or if he believed or not in the death penalty. He had been basically told: you missed something. You missed something that might have been what prevented an execution. It was an attack on his pride, his skill - and it would be the kind of thing that would sit in your stomach like a lead weight.
When he walked into the room and swept the boxes off the table, he made it clear: we have missed something. Go through every dot, every period, every document. A major burden was just placed on not just his, but in a lot of ways the firms concious. Diane was at the prison, not with good news, just to share some moments - she had no idea of the appeal. They were following the book, making sure they had done the right things and did everything they could. But the moment it was injected into the story that either they had missed something or they were onto something, the main characters changed their entire demeanor.
I thought those elements were fantastic. And probably how I would feel and react too. If I felt as though a man would die in the death penalty, but I had done everything asked of me, no appeal worked, I would still feel I had fought the good fight. But if someone told me, at the end: you missed what could have gotten him off, it's like a shot to the stomach - I think you would start to scurry. Diane felt it just as much, as she began to second guess everyone involved: if we missed something, who missed it? It had to be Legal Aid.. get them off of it, get the files, get someone else on it..
This wasn't a "feel good, let's get him off death row, it was all wrong". Even in the end, the "expert" said that considering all new methods and means, he still couldn't really believe it was anything other then arson because too many other details pointed to accelerant. What he did was acknowledge that "there is a possibility", just a crack in the door for a re-evaluation - not enough to get him released, not enough to overturn a conviction - just enough to say: is it possible? And that's the case Alicia made is it POSSIBLE this is wrong..
You're right Adam that a lot of people may have missed this because they have already zoned out TV for holiday viewing. But "The Good Wife" is one of the best broadcast dramas on TV right now. I can't even think of another on the major networks - drama not comedy - that is as consistent, polished, and as well written.
What really gets me about this show, again, is the use of small moments - a few seconds here, a few there, to still give you an eye into the story. Peter's debate gave us a chance to see that even he isn't sure where his marriage stands, and doesn't feel like answering the question. To the public, it may have seemed like a bombastic show of 'This is private!' which may net him some support. But privately, Alicia's look to the TV and sinking stomach told you her fear was: 'he is going to paint me into a corner, and speak for me'. The message she received, with a brief smile afterward was basically: maybe he really does understand this isn't over yet, and is taking this seriously... and a little bit of: and he is giving me the room to leave, if this doesn't work. 'If you love something, set it free...'
I agree Adam, with the fact that the attorneys involved didn't know if he was guilty or innocent - the original case was handled properly, etc. I think Will was on his way out of town because he had concluded that they wouldn't win, didn't want to think about it, and had asked not be contacted. He wasn't in a downbeat mood, sullen or sick to his stomach about it - he was riding out of town with the top down in his car, good music on the radio, big smile on his face. He had the confidence of knowing he had done everything that they could. It was the phone call that tipped them. At that moment, his attitude changed - it wasn't about whether he believed he was innocent or guilty, or if he believed or not in the death penalty. He had been basically told: you missed something. You missed something that might have been what prevented an execution. It was an attack on his pride, his skill - and it would be the kind of thing that would sit in your stomach like a lead weight.
When he walked into the room and swept the boxes off the table, he made it clear: we have missed something. Go through every dot, every period, every document. A major burden was just placed on not just his, but in a lot of ways the firms concious. Diane was at the prison, not with good news, just to share some moments - she had no idea of the appeal. They were following the book, making sure they had done the right things and did everything they could. But the moment it was injected into the story that either they had missed something or they were onto something, the main characters changed their entire demeanor.
I thought those elements were fantastic. And probably how I would feel and react too. If I felt as though a man would die in the death penalty, but I had done everything asked of me, no appeal worked, I would still feel I had fought the good fight. But if someone told me, at the end: you missed what could have gotten him off, it's like a shot to the stomach - I think you would start to scurry. Diane felt it just as much, as she began to second guess everyone involved: if we missed something, who missed it? It had to be Legal Aid.. get them off of it, get the files, get someone else on it..
This wasn't a "feel good, let's get him off death row, it was all wrong". Even in the end, the "expert" said that considering all new methods and means, he still couldn't really believe it was anything other then arson because too many other details pointed to accelerant. What he did was acknowledge that "there is a possibility", just a crack in the door for a re-evaluation - not enough to get him released, not enough to overturn a conviction - just enough to say: is it possible? And that's the case Alicia made is it POSSIBLE this is wrong..
You're right Adam that a lot of people may have missed this because they have already zoned out TV for holiday viewing. But "The Good Wife" is one of the best broadcast dramas on TV right now. I can't even think of another on the major networks - drama not comedy - that is as consistent, polished, and as well written.
The flashback story has become overused in recent years. Show a shocking scene, and the jump back to earlier and tell how the initial scene came to be.
This mystery structure -- start with the audience completely at sea with almost no reference and move forward -- is much less used. But The Good Wife pulled it off with aplomb. The first half in particular was riveting, climaxing with the wrenching scene of Carter being walked past his daughter on his way to prep for the execution. The latter half was capable, but perhaps because it was all mostly the inevitable wrap-up, didn't hold quite as tight.
But any minor sags were made up for by the crucial character moments. Alicia talking with Wil about talking later. Kalinda actually opening up, such a small and yet vast amount. Grace, praying. Her friend, every bit the 14-yr old Christian (her awkward, over zealous, unsophisticated chatter and pushiness resonated in my soul). Peter, saying what you want to hear a politician say in a public debate. Zack, distracted by, ogling Kalinda. (I understand your distress, brother...)
The momentary window into the world of the Penal system: people trying to do their jobs with professionalism, to serve their State. Even if their job is to execute a man. Dead Man Walking changed my view on the death penalty, with its exceptionally rounded and detailed view. In 43 minutes, this episode approached that movie's accomplishment in its own way.
And I want some of that French Toast.
This mystery structure -- start with the audience completely at sea with almost no reference and move forward -- is much less used. But The Good Wife pulled it off with aplomb. The first half in particular was riveting, climaxing with the wrenching scene of Carter being walked past his daughter on his way to prep for the execution. The latter half was capable, but perhaps because it was all mostly the inevitable wrap-up, didn't hold quite as tight.
But any minor sags were made up for by the crucial character moments. Alicia talking with Wil about talking later. Kalinda actually opening up, such a small and yet vast amount. Grace, praying. Her friend, every bit the 14-yr old Christian (her awkward, over zealous, unsophisticated chatter and pushiness resonated in my soul). Peter, saying what you want to hear a politician say in a public debate. Zack, distracted by, ogling Kalinda. (I understand your distress, brother...)
The momentary window into the world of the Penal system: people trying to do their jobs with professionalism, to serve their State. Even if their job is to execute a man. Dead Man Walking changed my view on the death penalty, with its exceptionally rounded and detailed view. In 43 minutes, this episode approached that movie's accomplishment in its own way.
And I want some of that French Toast.
Adam Lenhardt
Senior HTF Member
Yes, I forgot to mention the moment with the official from the neighboring state, who was being asked to give up his weekend with his daughter for no personal gain. It's easy to villanize people who oversee and carry out executions. Here is a man who is a loving family man from a respectable, relatively humble home who we see in a moment is a good father. He's not going to drive the box of sodium thiopental all the way to Illinois out of some zeal to see a man killed. He's doing it because he has committed himself to justice and really believes in American justice. This man has been found guilty by a jury of his peers and sentenced to death via due process. For him not to supply the mechanism of that due process would be to disrupt American justice. He feels a sense of duty, and he carries it out despite really messing up a weekend that he'd been looking forward to and his daughter had really been looking forward to. It was the kind of sublime scene that you simply wouldn't find in a lesser show, and it's the kind of beat that keeps this show from ever feeling preachy no matter how political or heady the issue being handled. No matter what side you fall on a given issue, The Good Wife is going to challenge your assumptions.
And I loved all of the interplay over Grace's friend's french toast. It said so much about a household that a) isn't accustomed to much home cooking, and b) functions as a household despite all of the fracture points in the individual relationships. Alicia may not have forgiven Peter, but they can still share a moment of instant mutual understanding that comes from decades of marriage. You can see how this relationship worked, even though it's gone cold now.
I think on that line, the Warden really played his role in a way that was both sympathetic and one that you could relate to. He didn't love or hate his job, but it was a job. And for as easy as it would have been to make him a punching bag, the Good Wife didn't do it. He pointed out to Diane that he was willing to extend visiting hours so he could see his daughter. But he also made it clear: I can't bend all the rules; it is going to be a lot more difficult on him if he's going to go into this wound up. I found that to be something that may take some aback, but really seemed to come from a very humanitarian place, that he has seen it before, and he wants this to be something that the person receiving the penalty can deal with rather then something that might have a lot of adreniline in him to risk him suffering or make it hard on him. When he pointed out that DIane had jumped his generosity by taking advantage of it, it wasn't that he was saying: I want the guy to die, it's that he knew he would be placing some of his burden on other people, and didn't want to. More then that, he saw it as providing someone false hope. I thought there were a lot of complex characters here who played their roles nearly beat perfect. I thought the second half was stronger then some, as I thought the exchange in the airport was a critical one for the audience. The arson expert still believed it was arson - he never changed his mind on that. He did, however, acknowledge that it was only "possible" and that a re-evaluation of the evidence would clear it up. That's all. I also liked the young girl who is into the zeal of faith, in part because it helps her make sense of things she can't make sense of. It provides her that comfort that is sometimes hard to grasp. I think a lot of people find this early, some keep it their whole life. But it was her hope that "I have found something that gives me answers" and wanting to share it - not in a creepy over the top way, but in a way that just reminds me of kids in my high school selling CYO Burritos..
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