The Fugitive: Season 3 Volume 1 (1 Viewer)

[Jack P]

How can there be a "peep" about it when no one's gotten an advance copy yet for goodness sake? I say it's ridiculous to get paranoid at this point because does anyone really think we're going to go through the equivalent of what happened the day S2 V1 was released?

 

[LeoA]

You missed his point Jack P. The original musical score being retained would be a major selling point that would logically be something they'd want to be promoting on such things as the cover of the DVD, such as in his Bonanza example.

Yet, there hasn't been a word about the issue despite their full knowledge of how a great many fans feel about the series and their concern about future releases. Their silence is telling in my opinion, and is grounds for predicting that we'll get something that has been butchered, either completely like the original copies of season 2, or with a significant portion of it like their replacement disc.

Even if the release is closer to what the replacement disc ended up being like, it's unacceptable and ruins the show in the opinion of many fans of it.

If the issue has been resolved, what's your reasoning for their silence when many people are waiting to hear the verdict before deciding to purchase or skip this release?

 

[Gary OS]

I have to agree with Jim and Leo on this one. As much as I'm hoping we get a third season dvd set that mirrors the first season set (almost every original musical note included), this is an interesting ad wrap around that Bonanza set. I've felt for some time that if we were going to get back on track with Season 3 of THE FUGITIVE, music wise, the company would have trumpeted it from the rooftops. The lack of any advanced news from CBS or an insider, along with the company pimping the "original music" in this BONANZA set, doesn't exactly feel me with confidence about the upcoming Fuge set.

Gary "praying I'm wrong..." O.

 

[Guy Foulard]

Originally Posted by jquirk

Did anyone notice the box cover art for CBS/Paramount's upcoming 50th anniversary release of "Bonanza?" It states, "Finally, the real deal! Full-length episodes with original music." They're making a big point about the series being released on DVD with the original music.

The same cannot be said about the upcoming release of the third season sets of "The Fugitive." There has been nary a peep about the music, which I believe is a very bad sign of what is to come.

Well, they're using that as a selling point to compete with the countless public domain versions of Bonanza out there, in order to convince us to buy the CBS/Paramount version, which retains the original theme music. Even if they do completely restore all the Fugitive music (something I don't expect), they're not going to advertise how much they screwed up in the Season 2 releases...

 

[smithb]

I don't think what Bonanza has on it's cover regarding the music is a good comparison to use one way or another when thinking about the next Fugitive release.

In my opinion, the only reason Bonanza went to such great lengths to express this is because of all the PD releases out there. From a marketing perspective they needed theirs to stand out above all the rest. Especially, consdering how inexpensive the PD releases are compared to the official first season release.

As for the next Fugitive release, I would bet they would go out of their way to purposely NOT do what was done with Bonanza. Doing so would just further complicate things by advertising the mistakes from the past. I will bet the majority of purchasers of the first two seasons do not even know about the extent of music replacements or that there was even a replacement program for season 2 volume 1 sets. The readers here will judge the next release by the reviews and contents, a cover means nothing. However, making a fuss on the next cover could make the average buyer question something that up to this point they haven't, which is "what is so special about this release that I missed in the previous releases". CBS would definitely not want to do that.

Edit: Jason beat me to it. gotta learn to type faster.

 

[Gary OS]

Originally Posted by Guy Foulard

Well, they're using that as a selling point to compete with the countless public domain versions of Bonanza out there, in order to convince us to buy the CBS/Paramount version, which retains the original theme music. Even if they do completely restore all the Fugitive music (something I don't expect), they're not going to advertise how much they screwed up in the Season 2 releases...

I agree, Guy, that CBS/Paramount probably wouldn't go the same route with a wrap around ad on the upcoming FUGITIVE set like they did the BONANZA set. You're correct that it would almost be like admitting they screwed up Season 2. Having said that, it seems reasonable to me that they'd at least let an intentional "leak" out with guys like Gord and Dave and the other outlets that we can expect full backscores again with this 3rd Season set. Otherwise they are shooting themselves in the foot because plenty of people are not going to pre-order this set because they are waiting on actual reviews. And pre-orders are important to the studios in determining those all important numbers they use to guage success. So it seems to me that they'd have gotten the word out one way or the other if they were returning THE FUGITIVE to a Season 1 template.

Gary "hope I'm wrong" O.

 

[smithb]

Originally Posted by Gary OS

I have to agree with Jim and Leo on this one. As much as I'm hoping we get a third season dvd set that mirrors the first season set (almost every original musical note included), this is an interesting ad wrap around that Bonanza set. I've felt for some time that if we were going to get back on track with Season 3 of THE FUGITIVE, music wise, the company would have trumpeted it from the rooftops. The lack of any advanced news from CBS or an insider, along with the company pimping the "original music" in this BONANZA set, doesn't exactly feel me with confidence about the upcoming Fuge set.

Gary "praying I'm wrong..." O.

While not advertising like Bonanza's upcoming release does not surprise me. Leaking something to this community about how they are trying to right the ship would go a long way to helping initial sales of the release. The question is, to a company like CBS, how much clout does a community like this have that they would even notice or think to communicate with?

 

[Guy Foulard]

It's hard to tell what's going on with them--they did do the whole exchange program for S2V1 to correct the most egregious music substitutions, but at the same time, they don't encourage much back-and-forth dialogue with the people who post on these boards. I do agree it's possible that if Season 3 was going to have the full original soundtrack (or 99% of it), they would have communicated that to the guys at TVShowsonDVD, so I'm going to assume we'll get something like "corrected" S2V1. (I'm just speculating, of course).

 

[smithb]

The S2V1 exchange was a reactive response to complaints here and else where. Even though they attempted to do something about it through the exchange program, reactive responses are typically not as hard to come by. What people here are looking for is a proactive response to let them know it won't happen again. Proactive responses take forethought that I just don't see happening here.

My take is to not try and guess, read between the lines, or even read tea leaves. I'm betting we won't know anything until the first person receives their copy and provides feedback. Until then we just have to see back and take a wait and see attitude.

 

[rjd0309]

Even if CBS *wanted* to give us the original soundtracks, who are they going to call at Capitol to obtain clearances? As long as the ownership of the Capitol Music Library remains in legal dispute, there is probably no one at Capitol who has the legal authority to grant clearances to use their cues. So CBS' only alternative is to make music substitutions. I'm just hoping that CBS has learned how important the original score is to the fans, and will keep the substitutions to an absolute minimum.

 

[Gary OS]

Originally Posted by rjd0309

Even if CBS *wanted* to give us the original soundtracks, who are they going to call at Capitol to obtain clearances? As long as the ownership of the Capitol Music Library remains in legal dispute, there is probably no one at Capitol who has the legal authority to grant clearances to use their cues. So CBS' only alternative is to make music substitutions. I'm just hoping that CBS has learned how important the original score is to the fans, and will keep the substitutions to an absolute minimum.

Robert, while I can't speak for everyone else, I believe I can safely say that if it was ONLY those pesky Capitol cues that were replaced, 99% of us would be fine. We know it's those scant few Capitol Music cues that are in question - and that's understandable. Those cues were rarely used and most of us could probably handle a few seconds of replacement music each episode. The problem is that CBS/Paramount not only excised those few Capitol cues from each episode, they also excised all the CBS Library music cues - the ones they actually own!!! It was those CBS Library cues (from shows like the Twilight Zone) that comprised the vast majority of the non-Rugolo backscore in THE FUGITIVE. And those need not have been replaced. Get those CBS cues back in, along with the Rugolo (of course), and all will be right with the world again. At least that's my take.

Gary "there are people in L.A. that could, and I'm sure would, help CBS/P determine which cues are from their own library and which are a part of the Capitol library" O.

 

[jquirk]

Jack P wrote:

How can there be a "peep" about it when no one's gotten an advance copy yet for goodness sake? I say it's ridiculous to get paranoid at this point because does anyone really think we're going to go through the equivalent of what happened the day S2 V1 was released?

Well, nobody needed to have an advanced copy of "Bonanza" to realize all of the original music was intact. CBS/Paramount touted that long before the Season One sets were released.

As for the equivalent of the heartache felt the day S2V1 was released, it certainly could be comparable, especially if S3V1 turns out to be anything like the disgraceful S2V2.

Regarding how much clout a community like this has, I believe the replacement program for S2V1 was spurred by Home Theater Forum, but mostly by Amazon, where a good brunt of consumers turn to fulfill home video needs.

If S3V1 is anything like S2V2, the response on Amazon - save about 25 percent favorable reviews from CBS apologists and cronies - will be predominantly negative. If the set mirrors the Season One sets or even the S2V1 replacement set, I suspect most reviews on Amazon will be positive.

 

[Jack P]

I have repeatedly argued that the reason why S2 V2 was likely less up to the standards of V1 replacement was because V2 was done *first* and thus V1 represented a more thorough attempt to put the right music back in. It simply makes more sense that replacement work on V1, which was not going to get a wide distribution, would have come *after* the set that was going to get the big rollout. I'm frankly surprised more people aren't willing to consider this possiblity.

And as for "Bonanza" the others in this thread are right. They're trying to differentiate this set from the PD releases were music replacement is an even bigger matter than the Fugitive S2 V2 was.

 

[jquirk]

Originally Posted by Jack P

I have repeatedly argued that the reason why S2 V2 was likely less up to the standards of V1 replacement was because V2 was done *first* and thus V1 represented a more thorough attempt to put the right music back in. It simply makes more sense that replacement work on V1, which was not going to get a wide distribution, would have come *after* the set that was going to get the big rollout. I'm frankly surprised more people aren't willing to consider this possiblity.

And as for "Bonanza" the others in this thread are right. They're trying to differentiate this set from the PD releases were music replacement is an even bigger matter than the Fugitive S2 V2 was.

Whoa, Hoss! To say music replacement is "an even bigger matter than the Fugitive S2V2 was" is way off base. I can't imagine how music replacement is a bigger issue with "Bonanza" than it is for "The Fugitive." At the very least, the two issues are comparable, but what CBS did by inserting Mark Heyes stuff was way over the top.

On the other hand, I do agree with you on your other point, that CBS had more time to work on the S2V1 replacement set than S2V2. That certainly is a possibility. Hopefully, that is the case. But even if it is the case, what does that say about CBS? That they were deliberately sloppy just to turn a profit?

Hopefully, the Season Two debacles are an anomaly, and the subsequent releases will be on par with the Season One volumes.

 

[rjd0309]

This may be a really stupid question, but wouldn't the Public Domain episodes of BONANZA have the original music? I mean, haven't they just been recorded from TV broadcasts? So what is so special about CBS claiming "original music"? Haven't the PD episodes had "original music" all along?

 

[Guy Foulard]

Originally Posted by rjd0309

This may be a really stupid question, but wouldn't the Public Domain episodes of BONANZA have the original music? I mean, haven't they just been recorded from TV broadcasts? So what is so special about CBS claiming "original music"? Haven't the PD episodes had "original music" all along?

I'm not sure what the details are, but some (or all?) of them are missing the original theme song, a music substitution that even casual* fans would notice.

*i.e. people who don't post on forums like this one.

 

[Corey3rd]

because the music publishing retained its copyright even if the episode fell out of copyright - especially when it comes to a show's theme song. So in order to release it as PD (and not pay anyone)

 

[jquirk]

You know, this whole situation may turn out to be a large money-making boon for CBS/Paramount. If the remaining sets still contain Mark Heyes substitution music, lots of fans will be upset and some won't care too much, but many people will likely still purchase them.

In a few years, it is possible the legal issues with Capitol get addressed, and CBS could release the entire collection again, this time with all of the original music intact. Like they have with the "Bonanza" sets, CBS could make a big deal about how the new version of "The Fugitive" retains all of the original music.

Many of the fans who purchased the original DVD sets would then pay again to finally obtain the musically unmolested sets, thus providing CBS with even more money for "The Fugitive," money it would not have received if not for the concern with the Capitol Music Library cues. Maybe this was CBS' plan from the beginning? If not, maybe it became the plan when CBS realized how important the original music is to the fans?

 

[LeoA]

I don't understand the thinking that they're not going to advertise that the original audio is intact because it would mean admitting previous products still on store shelfs are inferior to the average consumer.

If a consumer was pleased and unaware of what went on with season 2, they're not going to bat a eye at something like a DVD label for this latest release proclaiming that all original audio is intact, because as far as they were aware, it was always like that.

It in no way, shape, or form is a notice on the season 3 package of audio being intact admitting that season 2 was a inferior package that unwary consumers should avoid. If it was even spotted by the average consumer unaware of this whole mess and they compared it with a season 2 release next to it on the store shelf and actually noticed the message and paid any attention to it, they'll probably just going to write it off as the packaging of the series evolving. Any television series on DVD will usually have pretty wide varations in everything from art style, packaging, and even what information is present on the packaging from season to season.

What it would do is show fans that were aware and care about the issue and withholding their cash at the moment, that they're admitting it was an inferior product and took steps to rectify the situation with future releases and we can now start buying their releases again.

And it would prevent things like prerelease comments at Amazon retail pages and such warning consumers, who would otherwise be unaware of the issue, that they're looking at an inferior product. I fail to see how proclaiming that things have been rectified with a release at a site like TVShowsonDVD, a slip from an insider at a few forums like this, or the mention on the packaging that things are intact (Even if it's just the removal of "some audio has been changed for this home video release" and such in small lettering on the back of the package), would be anything but postive for sales.

The absence of any word from CBS is proof postive in my opinion that things haven't been rectified and we can expect more of the same. It just doesn't make a lick of sense that they'd of taken efforts to make sure future releases didn't have substantial audio edits, and not get the word out to help sales and word of mouth among the fanbase that would largely be responsible for early sales.

 

[Jack P]

The problem with this argument that rests on the notion that since Bonanza packaging highlights the audio but Fugitive doesn't, then ergo, Fugitive will still have mostly replaced audio, is that it keeps overlooking the matter of the *existing PD releases of Bonanza* and that a grabber is *needed* to make the uninitated realize why CBS/Paramount's version is the one you need to get.