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The Fugitive: Season 3 Vol.2

Discussion in 'TV on DVD and Blu-ray' started by Roy Wall, Sep 8, 2009.

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  1. Sam Favate

    Sam Favate Lead Actor

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    As regrettable as the music situation is, I have to say I still enjoy watching the show. The music is integral to the show and Paramount/CBS has diminished the effectiveness of the show, but they can't strip away everything that was enjoyable. It's still one of the finest programs ever on TV, and I look forward to the remaining two volumes - preferably with the music intact!
     
  2. Jack P

    Jack P Producer

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    Sam, I can agree with you for the most part, especially when the worst thing to put up with is a "blend" of music in an episode. Until S3 V2 we have never had to worry about more than 40% of an episode being mucked up by replacement music, which at the least telegraphed to me that on the whole enough of the original sound was being allowed to stand intact. But being greeted to one episode that was non-stop Heyes from start to finish (except for two tiny Rugolo cues) was a jolt I wasn't prepared for and it's got me veering more into the pessimistic realm about what they're going to do with those Outer Limits cues for S4. As I've said, it's not really the whole of S4 that concerns me it's "The Judgment". I think up to now the thing that's relieved me is that through S3 almost all of what I consider to be the "key" episodes of the show are ones that have been left intact with minimal to no changes (the one exception would be "The Survivors" which is a 50-50 ratio type). Hearing almost nothing altered in "Landscape With Running Figures" was I'll admit the thing that gave me the biggest relief because I do feel that if I can watch again and again to my heart's content the "core" episodes of the series with no worries, I can feel reasonably good. If "The Judgment" ends up altered with those pulse-pounding cues in the final Kimble-Johnson confrontation on the tower and the great up tempo cue as Kimble, Gerard and Chandler walk away at the end of Act IV and the camera pulls back missing (a cue I have also BTW heard recycled in episodes of "Rat Patrol"), *that* is when my level of outrage will finally reach the level its done for others. I don't even want to imagine some of these Heyes chase cues that have been bad enough to take in many earlier episodes ruining the climactic moment of the whole series. Granted I have a DVD transfer from the old VHS release I can watch instead, but this last episode is something I would love to see in the pristine video quality that CBS/Paramount has been giving us along with the original sound and that would be the one thing more than anything else that could sour the whole experience for me. I could over time learn to accept the other episodes with their altered scores just so long as I have the reassurance that the last and most important remaining episode is unmolested.
     
  3. Jack P

    Jack P Producer

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    In all this time we have been gnashing our teeth on the matter of music replacement and rights ownership of library music etc. maybe one question that should be asked is this: Exactly why did Quinn Martin think that "The Fugitive" should be the only show that I know of in the annals of network television that relied *entirely* on library music for its entire run? I have not come across a single instance of a TV show in this era other than "The Fugitive" that did not feature at least some episodes with freshly commissioned original scores to then draw from later on.

    I mean let's face it, if the show had just built up its own diverse library of music from 5-6 original scores for one season mixed in with what Rugolo did initially then I think the show would have been just as good as it was and today we'd be hearing its underscore totally unchanged today.
     
  4. LeoA

    LeoA Cinematographer

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    I don't think they had any real concerns even with the original music. They were never going to have people coming out of the woodwork accusing them of utilizing music and cues that they didn't have the rights to. There isn't someone sitting on the rights of the Capitol Music Library decades later waiting for their ship to come in.

    It was some CBS/Paramount lawyer, that in the drive to protect his/her $500/hr position and validate their importance to the corporation that discovered it and then the overcautious legal department decided it was too risky since they couldn't detirmine who owned what. Other series used audio from the same sources and have been released without expensive lawsuits (Family Affair comes to mind for the Capitol Music Library ).

    And as far as I know, The Fugitive didn't rely on library music entirely. That's part of the reason for the outroar. Things such as music composed by Pete Rugolo specifcally for this program is often also being edited out along with music from things like the Capitol Music Library.

    Would've never happened before the merger with Paramount.
     
  5. jquirk

    jquirk Stunt Coordinator

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    What's really crazy is that, after the Season 2 Vol. 1 replacement set was announced, CBS made it appear that at least all of the Rugolo would be intact. From what Jack and others have said about S3V2, it sounds like Rugolo cues have been pulled in many instances along with everything else.

    I'm totally with Gary about this going down as the worst memory of a TV show getting released on DVD. I borrowed my brother's copy of S2V2 recently (I refused to buy my own after reading the reviews) and was appalled at some of the changes, many of which are massive.

    Like many others here, I waited years for this to come out on DVD. When it finally did, I was ecstatic with the high quality of those two Season One volumes. The only complaints anybody heard at the time about those first two volumes was that there were no bonus materials. Little did anybody realize that a much larger problem was about to rear its ugly head. Up until the S2V1 debacle, CBS in my view did a pretty decent job with some of their TV show DVD releases like "The Wild, Wild West," and "Mission: Impossible." Of course, CBS lost all my respect with the release of "The Wild, Wild West" complete series box set. That set included two "Wild, Wild West" TV movies that weren't included in any of the individual season sets. That means CBS tried to double dip. Only the most hardcore WWW fans were buying the season sets when they were getting released. Instead of including the two TV movies in the final, Season Four set, CBS opted to hold that for the complete box set. Basically, they made it so fans of the show who had already bought the individual seasons would have to shell out an additional 80 to 100 bucks for the two WWW TV movies.

    If CBS is capable of something like that, it makes one wonder why the company continues to dish out these ruined versions of "The Fugitive." Is it because the long term plan includes re-releasing it again down the road with the music fully restored? They know a lot of people will pay again to have this series in its original format.
     
  6. TravisR

    TravisR Studio Mogul

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    No.
     
  7. Jack P

    Jack P Producer

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    I realize that, but the point I'm making is that what Rugolo did was not per se a score for the pilot episode in which the music was scene specific to the episode, it was really for all intents and purposes composing a set of library cues for the series that in the sum total of just one scoring session amounted to the only original music composed for the series. That wasn't the norm for any TV series I know of back in the day, in which the usual procedure would be to supplement that material with original scores from the many gifted composers of the day who were cutting their teeth with individual scores for many episodes of 60s TV shows. "Star Trek" for instance would have about a third of the episodes for a season featuring a new original score by someone which you would then intersperse with cues composed for previous episodes and then other episodes would be tracked entirely with music initially composed for the series itself. The question I have is was Martin just so determined to cut corners that he didn't think it was worth hiring a Jerry Goldsmith or a Fred Steiner or even bringing Rugolo on again to do something fresh for another episode? If he had done that, then "The Fugitive" would have been comprised entirely of music unique to the show itself, and thus years later no one would be concerned about any needless licensing issues at all. That's all I'm saying.
     
  8. stevelecher

    stevelecher Supporting Actor

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    I just watched the "Cora Lee" episode from videotapes from A&E from 1990 - 1991. This episode features almost no music generally associated with The Fugitive. The score is very strange. I don't condone the music being changed because it's just not right but it's not like there is a lot of Rugolo music being erased here. It's a weird episode.

    Like others, I have given up on these DVD's, as the music issue is too much to take. I accepted the Season 3, Volume 1 DVD but there are apparently too many changes on Vol 2 for me to make the purchase. It is a shame that CBS has ruined this wonderful series. Personally, I don't care if they release season 4; I'm not a buyer.

    Steve Lecher
     
  9. jquirk

    jquirk Stunt Coordinator

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    I wonder, Steve, if the music from Coralee in the original version you watched might have been from "The Outer Limits?" I know "Outer Limits" music was used heavily in the final season, but I don't know if it was used, perhaps sparingly, in the previous season?
     
  10. jquirk

    jquirk Stunt Coordinator

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    Just "no?"
     
  11. TravisR

    TravisR Studio Mogul

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    When you've brought up the same idea before, I've explained myself more. Here it is again though, I think it's virtually impossible that Paramount conspired to remove the original score from The Fugitive with the intention of putting it back in a few years so they can sell a few thousand more copies.
     
  12. Jack P

    Jack P Producer

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    The "Outer Limits" library was not licensed until after Alan Armer left as producer in the early part of S4. My bet is it that the score is something that was CBS Library but was one that wasn't familiar to anyone in the legal department. They seem to have a better understanding of what was a Twilight Zone score, which is where most of the library music would come from, but I suspect that stuff that might have been composed for a more obscure drama series that more importantly is not well known to even the average TV music buff because it hasn't been released on CD is more apt to get the scissors because they can't decide whether its CBS or Cap in their minds.

    It's starting with episode #5 in S4 that the change in library music starts so that's when we have to start crossing our fingers when the release comes out (and since the HD transferring is complete for S4 we know it will come).
     
  13. Tim Tucker

    Tim Tucker Screenwriter

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    I thought the problem with the Capitol Music Library was that there is no clear ownership, so Paramount doesn't know who to license it from.

    Wouldn't the rights to The Outer Limits cues be an different situation? I mean, Dominic Frontiere's music got a CD release. Paramount could easily find out who owns the rights and start negotiations.
     
  14. Jeff Willis

    Jeff Willis Producer

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    We think that's what makes the whole Fugitive music circus story frustrating for fans, that there are so many of the Outer Limits ques in the Fugitive and those ques apparently aren't a liscescing issue with other Paramout sets as well as the Outer Limits sets.

    The Cap Music Ques are also present in other CBS/P sets, ie, Rawhide, etc. Those
    apparently weren't a problem with any clearance issues either.

    The other problem from a TV/DVD collector's perspective, at least for me, is the inconsistancy with the music edits and "Heyes" subs in the Fugitive volume sets. There doesn't appear to be any rhyme or reason approach to the overall music edits in these sets when comparing the vol releeases. One vol may have considerably less music sub's than the next release. Since we don't have the actual story from the studio, we are left to guess the scenarios that they used to edit/change the backscores.

    Bottom line, to me, is it's all been a strange story with these Fugitive music problems that has been surrounded with secrecy, imo.....like something from the "X Files".....
     
  15. jquirk

    jquirk Stunt Coordinator

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    My concern with Season Four is that CBS will opt not to negotiate with MGM to use music from "The Outer Limits." When you consider the problems with the 1960s "Batman" series getting hung up because of rights disputes apparently between Fox and Warner, it is easy to imagine CBS not wanting to pay MGM for the rights to use "Outer Limits" music.

    And if that is what happens, then CBS really should start thinking of a new ad campaign that does not mention anything about pedestals. It would be a true crime if CBS uses Heyes music to replace "Outer Limits" cues simply because CBS doesn't want to show MGM the money. But considering how CBS has treated fans of "The Fugitive" thus far, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the company takes the cheap Heyes route to make the ruination of the greatest television series of the 1960s - if not of all time - complete.
     
  16. Tim Tucker

    Tim Tucker Screenwriter

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    According to the La-La Land Records sound track release, the music was "used under license from Dominic Frontiere", not MGM, which sounds promising.
     
  17. jquirk

    jquirk Stunt Coordinator

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    Well that certainly does sound promising, Tim.
     
  18. Stephen Bowie

    Stephen Bowie Stunt Coordinator

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    Dominic Frontiere was a part owner of Daystar Productions (the company that produced The Outer Limits and Stoney Burke) so it makes sense that he would've retained the copyright to that music when Daystar was dissolved.

    Not that it makes much difference with regard to music replacement whether it was Frontiere or UA who supplied the stock cues -- it's all about whether QM left behind enough documentation for the CBS "experts" to figure out what came from where. If they couldn't separate the Capitol cues from everything else, I don't have much faith that they'll be able to recognize the Outer Limits cues. But, who knows.
     
  19. Jack P

    Jack P Producer

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    All the people at CBS need to do for starters is read this summary from the David Janssen website.

    http://www.davidjanssen.net/FugitiveMusic.htm
     
  20. jquirk

    jquirk Stunt Coordinator

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    Yeah, they should read it. Probably some more letters need to be sent to CBS, too.
     

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