The Forsyte Saga (2002) - technical questions (1 Viewer)

[Harry-N]

As someone who watched the old B&W version of THE FORSYTE SAGA on a fuzzy PBS station with rabbit-ear antennas, I can only wonder where in the world I was when the updated 2002 version aired. I missed it. I think I was vaguely aware that it had even been remade, but that was all.


After becoming huge DOWNTON ABBEY fans, my wife and I were looking to watch something recently and I found THE FORSYTE SAGA listed as airing on a local PBS station down here from the Tampa market. It was listed for a Monday evening at 8 PM and was scheduled for each Monday at that time afterwards. So we agreed, we'd give it a try.


So we watched. It aired from 8 PM to about 8:50 PM and while we had a bit of difficulty wading through the British accents and the somewhat mumbly actors (we had to turn on the closed captioning!), we did enjoy it.


The very next day, a Tuesday, I happened to be perusing the list of stuff available to Amazon Prime members and spotted THE FORSYTE SAGA there. Great! We wouldn't have to wait a week to watch the next episode. So I selected episode two and we continued to watch. The show seemed to get even better with that second episode, but we continued with the subtitled captioning.


I believe we finished up the series virtually within the week that we would have waited for the second episode on PBS, and we had a good time with it.


That's the bulk of the story. Now, to my questions.


Both the PBS showing and the streaming Amazon episodes were full 16:9 video, but the image was quite soft and a bit "mushy" at times. It was most certainly not anything approaching high definition. Given that the show was originally aired in 2002, it would have been "on the cusp" of everything in high-definition, and because it was British, perhaps they were not yet doing TV series in high def(?). Or, perhaps something in the conversion from British PAL to North American NTSC has had the effect of softening the picture. I noticed that images that were mostly still had pleasing enough definition, but during pans or motion sequences, things really got mushy-looking.


So, was the series done in high-definition at all, or is what's out there as good as it's going to get? Will it look maybe a little better on perhaps a DVD?


My second question has to do with episode lengths and broadcasts. As I mentioned, when we watched the first episode, it only played for about 50 minutes. Every succeeding streaming episode seemed to time out at about 1:10 - a total of about 20 minutes longer.


After we finished the series, I mentioned this to my wife and suggested that we rewatch the first episode for two reasons. Now that we were well familiar with the characters, it would be interesting to delve into the first episode and catch more nuances that were beyond us the first time through. And since we only got 50 minutes, perhaps we could see what might have been cut out of episode one on the broadcast version.


To our surprise, the episode played exactly as it had on PBS for the first 50 minutes, and then we got a full 20 minutes extra of story we hadn't seen - and oh boy was THAT an important 20 minutes!


So, second question, what's the deal with the PBS broadcasts? Did they chop the episodes up into smaller chunks so that there'd be more episodes? How do the DVDs present the episodes? In PBS' 50 minute chunks, or the 1:10 streaming lengths?


Thanks to anyone who can answer these questions.


Harry

 

[Greg Krewet]

I can not speak to the technical end so I am unable to help you there. Forsythe was original made by Granada Tv. The original episodes as broadcast in England appeared to be shown in segments lasting longer then 1 hour so its possible they were reconfigured to fit into the 1 hour Masterpiece time segment when it was first broadcast. The packaging also states that the version on dvd is the original broadcast version of the UK. In todays programming Masterpiece usually comes from two sources, BBC and ITv. Since ITV programming is shorter and allows for commercials, episodes are usually shown in their entirety when broadcast on Masterpiece. A notable exception is Downtown Abbey which was cut for Us viewing by 5 to 6 minutes per episode. That material which comes from BBC is almost always cut by a few minutes to allow for the sponsorship's and host introductions. That being said both PBS and BBC when they release the Masterpiece material on Blu Ray and DVD usually release the complete original UK Broadcast version and point that out in the packaging that it is longer version.

 

[The Obsolete Man]

I'm not sure they were filming shows in High Def as far back as 2002.


I mean, Doctor Who started in 2005 and wasn't filmed in HD until 2010. They did start going 16:9 in the UK earlier than the US, though.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I used to do a little work on Masterpiece, so I might be able to answer this for you. It's been a while since I worked at PBS, so I'm going from memory here, so a few of the details may be a little off, but I think the gist of what I'm saying is accurate.


Masterpiece edits pretty much everything that comes from the UK - sometimes they're edits for content, like removing some language that would be considered okay for the British networks but not for an American audience, and sometimes they are edits for time. Whenever possible, WGBH Boston Video (now PBS Distribution) would seek to release the uncut version for the home video market, which includes streaming and digital distribution online. So that's why the running times can be off between what's airing on your local PBS station and what's available on video or online.


As for the softness in the picture, I'm not sure how Forsythe was originally shot (I didn't ever work on that particular show), but most of the titles from Masterpiece from that time period were shot on 16mm film and then edited on tape - and since the shows are put together in the UK, the filming is done at 25fps and then transferred to PAL format video. Masterpiece normally would receive a converted version of the show - that is, rather than being sent the 25fps/PAL version and having to convert it to NTSC themselves, instead Masterpiece is given a tape that already has the show converted to NTSC by their British partners. It's from that version that the edits are made. The PAL to NTSC conversion can result in the show looking weird - essentially that "British look" that's not actually British at all or how it would look on their TVs, but the result of the conversion process. I agree that its most apparent during scenes with lots of movement and less so in static shots with less motion within the frame.


Sometimes with these digital distribution deals, they were able to go back and supply a 25fps/PAL version to the retailer, and other times all that was available were the NTSC converted versions. So there are some Masterpiece shows that look better streaming than others.


But that's probably the best it's going to look when viewed on an NTSC monitor. To get something better, you'd need to get a DVD player and TV that could display native PAL content, and then import a copy of the PAL format DVDs. I've done just that with Doctor Who episodes from the BBC, and to my eyes, they do look much better that way. But that is a lot of effort to go through in terms of getting new equipment and importing discs for just one program, so I understand completely that it's not really a practical suggestion.


Hope this helps, if there's anything unclear let me know and I'll do my best to clarify.

 

[Harry-N]

Thanks for the replies. I guess my ultimate question is, "Are the DVDs an improvement at all over what was on PBS or Amazon streamin?" I really liked the series and wouldn't mind adding it to my collection, but am unsure if the DVDs are worthwhile.


It also sounds like a Blu-ray release isn't likely.


Harry

 

[benbess]

Harry: Since you liked that show, you might consider these other 21st century BBC favorites if you haven't already seen them: Bleak House, Daniel Deronda, and Cranford.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I guess my ultimate question is, "Are the DVDs an improvement at all over what was on PBS or Amazon streamin?"

Assuming that you're getting the Amazon stream at full quality with no streaming issues, I think that it's going to look about equal to the DVD. So buying the DVD would be a good way to guarantee ownership and have a nice physical copy for your shelf, but in this case, I don't think the U.S. NTSC DVD is going to be any better (or worse) than the streaming copy.

I haven't seen the disc myself though so that's just an educated guess on my part, based on comparing other PBS DVDs and online streams of similar programs from the same time period.

 

[The Obsolete Man]

The other question you might want to know the answer to is do the DVDs suffer from the dreaded (for lack of a better term) NTSC Slowdown.


It's been more of a recent thing, with sets like Red Dwarf X and Doc Martin S6 being noticeably off because the audio wasn't pitch shifted to sound correct. And in the case of Red Dwarf, the DVDs looked and sounded horrible, and ran about 2-3 minutes longer because of the slowdown, while the streaming versions were correct in both sound and runtime.

 

[Harry-N]

As a constant naysayer to PAL speedup, I salute you sir, for turning the tables on me.

Geez, I hope THAT'S not true!

Harry

 

[Harry-N]

Well, since I've gone ahead and purchased the DVD set, I've gotten some answers to my own questions.

First off, there is the distinct possibility that there were two different issues of the complete series on DVD. Listings exist for THE FORSYTE SAGA COLLECTION from an outfit called Acorn that was released in 2012. There is a newer version from June of 2015 called THE FORSYTE SAGA, THE COMPLETE SERIES from PBS (Direct). So that may be where some of the complication has arisen.

Somewhere in reviews I read, I saw someone mention that the newer PBS set was an improvement in the picture quality from the older set. The newer PBS set is the one I bought, and it has the series in 50-minute chunks, making for more episodes.

So, putting two and two together, I've come up with the following answers to my earlier questions:

- For sure, the reason that the PBS showing I saw on TV was "mushy" looking was because it was on a digital subchannel with lots of compression.

- The Amazon episodes I viewed at the longer length were likely sourced from the older Acorn mastering, which is the reason THAT picture may have been mushy.

The DVDs from PBS (direct) look about the way you'd expect a DVD to look with occasional edges that aren't quite sharp, detail in backgrounds not as evident, etc. But with its full 16:9 picture, it can look pretty decent on today's televisions, upscaled with a Blu-ray player. The only negative to the picture quality here is a rather strange color palette where faces tend toward the pinky-purple region. Yet a tilt of the "hue" toward green fixes some of the skin color, but also emphasizes greenish hues around everything else. Not a dealbreaker, but not a DVD you'd choose as a demonstrator either!

Anyway, it's now in my permanent library and I'm content. Thanks to those who've attempted to answer my questions.

Harry