Disney+ THE FALCON AND THE WINTER SOLDIER (Marvel Cinematic Universe) (1 Viewer)

[Robert Crawford]

I suppose that’s possible and makes sense on some level, but the thing I’m stuck on is that when he’s fighting at the beginning of the next scene, he doesn’t seem to be powered yet, and then he’s off camera for a while, and then he’s fighting with abilities he didn’t have moments earlier.

I just watched that sequence again and I think the serum just started to take effect when he threw the shield into the wall when fighting one of the flag smashers. He did this weird movements with his shoulders like he was getting an adrenaline high. When he grabbed the shield out of the wall, the same flag smasher attacked him again and the next thing you saw him kicked that person threw the door before he bent the iron pipe and the smasher said "Oh Shit".

 

[Robert Crawford]

I just watched that sequence again and I think the serum just started to take effect when he threw the shield into the wall when fighting one of the flag smashers. He did this weird movements with his shoulders like he was getting an adrenaline high. When he grabbed the shield out of the wall, the same flag smasher attacked him again and the next thing you saw him kicked that person threw the door before he bent the iron pipe and the smasher said "Oh Shit".

In short, I still think he took the serum prior to that fight and it kicked in during the fighting sequences.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

I just watched that sequence again and I think the serum just started to take effect when he threw the shield into the wall when fighting one of the flag smashers. He did this weird movements with his shoulders like he was getting an adrenaline high. When he grabbed the shield out of the wall, the same flag smasher attacked him again and the next thing you saw him kicked that person threw the door before he bent the iron pipe and the smasher said "Oh Shit".

That was actually another inconsistency, I thought. Karli talked about her veins burning for days as her body was transformed by the serum. But Walker seemed to get the full effects more or less instantly and painlessly.

 

[Citizen87645]

All good points.

The part that's unclear to me is when Walker took the serum.

 

[Robert Crawford]

That was actually another inconsistency, I thought. Karli talked about her veins burning for days as her body was transformed by the serum. But Walker seemed to get the full effects more or less instantly and painlessly.

Man, there isn't a movie nor a TV show that didn't have inconsistencies. I still think he took the serum prior to the day of this last fight.

 

[Jake Lipson]

I think it's really interesting that this is causing so much debate. Walker taking the serum is a significant story development, so I think it would be in their interest to be very clear about when and how it happens. I would have just shown him taking it.

 

[DaveF]

I think it’s apparent they wanted it to be a reveal that Walker took the serum.

When he took it could be interesting, but this show is so tight, given how they’re shorthanding his entire mental breakdown, I think it’s not worth the screen time to show him deciding to take it.

Plus, it was an exciting moment to see him bending the pipe and knowing that he had in fact taken it, and the show was pivoting again.

 

[Robert Crawford]

I think it’s apparent they wanted it to be a reveal that Walker took the serum.

When he took it could be interesting, but this show is so tight, given how they’re shorthanding his entire mental breakdown, I think it’s not worth the screen time to show him deciding to take it.

Plus, it was an exciting moment to see him bending the pipe and knowing that he had in fact taken it, and the show was pivoting again.

Hell, I knew he took it when he threw that dude through that door into the wall on the stairway. The bending of the pipe was just more confirmation.

 

[Sam Favate]

As soon as Walker threw that guy across the room and into the wall, I said "he took it." It was obvious, to me anyway.

 

[AlexF]

For me it was when the shield ended up buried deep into the wall.

That was something we saw Rogers do in past films, so it was a bit of a hint to that.

The punch and the pipe bending were full on confirmations.

 

[Robert Crawford]

For me it was when the shield ended up buried deep into the wall.

That was something we saw Rogers do in past films, so it was a bit of a hint to that.

The punch and the pipe bending were full on confirmations.

That's what caught my attention and then he did the shoulder thing before taking it out of the wall.

 

[Sam Posten]

Still my Cap

 

[jayembee]

Also, regarding the predictability of Walker's descent. It's been a few decades since I studied Greek tragedy, but isn't predictability and heavy foreshadowing of the course of a character's ruin a central aspect of what makes it a tragedy? That ultimately it's a fate the person can't avoid because of their hubris and blindness to the truth.

And there's also the concept of the Tragic Hero, whose tragedy is brought about due to their inherent personal flaws. One might question whether John Walker was a "hero", but I'd say he is (or was). He was a war hero, winning three Medals of Honor, and his record apparently suggested he was (or convinced the Powers That Be that he was) fit to wear the costume and carry the shield. If he had never become Captain America, he'd undoubtedly still be doing the hero thing in combat operations here and there around the world.

 

[jayembee]

Perhaps it's just me, but to me, Rogers was stronger, more durable and faster than those that took the serum after him.

As far as we know, he was the only one who got Vita-rays.

 

[jayembee]

There was certainly a lot to unpack in this episode.

I found it interesting that Zemo didn't hesitate before acknowledging that Steve Rogers was an exception to his rule about super-soldiers. Given that Steve was still a part of the Avengers, a group Zemo despised. It might be that he was told what had happened (or didn't happen) in the fight between Rogers and Stark. It made an interesting parallel that with both Rogers and Walker, they had their opponent on the ground, raised the shield in what looked like an imminent death blow, and...two different outcomes. We'll never really know what was in Steve's head at that moment. Tony looked like he believed right then that Steve was going to kill him. But he shattered the armor's power source. Walker chose differently. So maybe Zemo knew that when pushed to the limit, Rogers still wouldn't murder anyone in cold blood.

The thing is, Zemo's right. The entire sad history of humankind shows that power -- any power: "superhero" powers, political power, psychological power, economic power, and so on -- is only there to support the power-bearer's belief that they know better than everyone else. The irony, I suppose, is that Zemo comes from a wealthy, aristocratic family, and therefore has undoubtedly used such power for his own ends.

Another interesting thing is that we're seeing the "One Bad Day" meme playing out. The most notable use of that was in Alan Moore's The Killing Joke, where the Joker tortures James Gordon in an attempt to cause Gordon to have a mental breakdown, all to show Batman that anyone could end up just like he (Joker) did after having a bad enough day. It was also used by Nolan in The Dark Knight, with Joker -- successfully, this time -- doing it to Harvey Dent. And now, we see it with John Walker. Not that it was all just one day for him, but this day poked at all the inadequacies he's obviously been feeling since becoming Captain America, and the death of Lamar was the breaking point.

I still maintain my original position, that I think Walker was a good man, who believed in his mission, and wanted to be the best Captain America that he could. But he wasn't up to the task, and it broke him. Like Cameron, I pity him. I'm not excusing the murder he committed, but I feel that it's a tragedy that a good man at heart got pressed beyond his limits because he wasn't quite good enough.

 

[Sam Favate]

Another interesting thing is that we're seeing the "One Bad Day" meme playing out. The most notable use of that was in Alan Moore's The Killing Joke, where the Joker tortures James Gordon in an attempt to cause Gordon to have a mental breakdown, all to show Batman that anyone could end up just like he (Joker) did after having a bad enough day. It was also used by Nolan in The Dark Knight, with Joker -- successfully, this time -- doing it to Harvey Dent. And now, we see it with John Walker. Not that it was all just one day for him, but this day poked at all the inadequacies he's obviously been feeling since becoming Captain America, and the death of Lamar was the breaking point.

In one of the best lines in the (excellent) second season of Marvel's Daredevil, Frank Castle - the Punisher - tells Matt Murdoch (Daredevil), "You're just one bad day away from being me."

 

[Sam Favate]

Trailer for final 2 episodes:

 

[Citizen87645]

Someone needs to shave.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Someone needs to shave.

It's a rule that when superheroes go evil they need to grow some stubble.

 

[Citizen87645]

Bathing also optional, I assume.