1. Sign-up to become a member, and most of the ads you see will disappear. It only takes 30 seconds to sign up, so join the discussion today!
    Dismiss Notice

The Eternal Angelriffic Thread (Merged)

Discussion in 'TV Shows' started by Jeff Kleist, Apr 15, 2002.

  1. Michael Reuben

    Michael Reuben Director

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 1998
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    5,110
    Real Name:
    Michael Reuben


    Sorry, but that's convenience, not logic. The character acts like Cordelia for as long as the writers need the audience to see her that way. In the meantime, we're supposed to believe that she's been completely taken over by Jasmine and is pursuing a complex series of steps designed to -- what? Apparently keep everyone occupied while she sleeps with Connor and gives birth to herself. By the time she sleeps with Connor, she's already summoned the Beast, sent him out to kill the Ra-tet and killed off the Nordic Priestesses. That requires more than Jasmine having "influence" or making the occasional appearance. The only explanation consistent with what's revealed in "Inside Out" is that Jasmine's been fully in control since the end of "Spin the Bottle". But the writers had to make her behave like Cordelia so that the audience wasn't prematurely tipped off.



    M.
     
  2. Ryan Wishton

    Ryan Wishton Screenwriter

    Joined:
    May 17, 2003
    Messages:
    1,130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    When Jasmine had total control really should have been explained better.



    I always thought she woke up in Spin the Bottle, but Cordy was still in most control until the rein of fire and rise of the beast. This would explain why she seemed so depressed and trying to warn of something coming. Why she says she wants to tell Angel so badly, but something is holding her back. "Why cant I tell him?" she utters. Why she was also having the scary nightmares.



    Why would Jasmine have scary nightmaress of the Beast when she sent it? Why would Jasmine warn them of something evil coming? You would think she would want the upper hand.



    I originally thought back when I knew the plot that it wasnt going to be Cordy at all. I assumed her spirit just stayed on the higher plain and she would be watching at seasons end at everything going on.
     
  3. charlieCH

    charlieCH Auditioning

    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hiyall, I finally was able to finish season 5 on dvd since I missed out when it originally aired on tv and I wanted to chime in here about my thoughts about the final episode (not sure where else to go)...and if Joss Whedon is reading this (sincerely hope he does) a reply would be much appreciated.
    The series finale IMHO did what the show's creators (Whedon & co.) wanted it to do-complete the story arcs to a satisfying finish. Despite the ending looking like a cliffhanger, I agree with Jeffrey Bell (episode commentary) that the show should end showing our heroes fighting the good fight not really mattering if they won or lose because that was what the entire series was all about-it wasn't the prize at the end of the struggle that mattered but the struggle itself and the determination to keep on fighting evil in all its forms that mattered the most.
    The scene with Wes dying in Illyria's arms,
    though heartbreaking to watch, is definitely one of my favorites in this episode. If you've been watching the series since its inception, then you'all should be aware that the Wes/Fred story arc started way back in season 2--from the first moment Wes laid eyes on Fred he had fallen for her. But, Wes's infatuation which later grew into love would from time to time be held back from ever developing by some clever writing by Whedon & Co.--it makes for some great drama and keeps the characters of Fred and Wes more interesting to watch. Whedon apparently had the impression in his mind that once Fred & Wes ever got together, it would totally get boring. I agree to some extent (e.g. Lois & Clark New Adventures) but as a storyteller, you gotta give what the fans were hungry for--to see the once-shy clumsy-turned dark brooding Wes finally get to be with the girl of his dreams Fred (lets not start with the whole Lilah gig-that was IMO just a phase for Wes even though he did develop "feelings" for Lilah, underneath it all, Wes was still in love with Fred). Whedon & Co. finally gave the fans what we've been hammering for in season 5 (why'd take so long???) Wes & Fred finally confessing their love for eachother, but unfortunately their love was shortlived due to a stroke of genius writing by Whedon & Co. who decided to shake things up by turning Fred into a demigod demon Illyria which meant killing Fred (see A Hole In The World-another terrific episode and one of my faves). Thus, the Wes/Fred love arc finally finds its end in the series finale with Wes dying in Illyria's arms. Illyria, expressing a little humanity, asks Wes "Would you like me to lie to you now?" Wes responds with dying breath "Yes please" and Illyria physically morphs into Fred who then comforts Wes in his last moments that he will finally be with her(Fred) forever (in heaven I assume).

    What else can I say? Brilliant piece of writing here. I was totally heartbroken just watching this scene alone--it was the same feeling when I watched Oz say goodbye to Willow in BtVS season 4's "Wild at Heart", both scenes just drove me to tears. Maybe its got something to do with seeing beautiful ladies crying their heart out that 's my weakness or something. Amy Acker & Alexis Denisof acted superbly in this scene-they both conveyed the raw emotional intensity of the moment so well I couldn't help crying myself.

    Despite the great acting and terrific writing of this episode, I still am disappointed with Whedon & Co. for going this direction with Wes' character. I understand that writing any epic climactic battle especially one taking place in the finale of a series would certainly have more drama/emotional resonance if it involved tragedy or loss on the part of the protagonists, but killing Wes
    wouldn't have been my choice. I would've chosen Gunn-his character going out in a blaze of glory killing the senator and then getting overrun by the vampire minions from left and right would make for a more glorious death. Wes should've survived the fight with the red demon
    --afterall he is one of the principal main characters (after Doyle left) of the series since the beginning. Besides, I like to believe that if Wes had survived,
    it would be more interesting to see stories involving him and Illyria trying to find her place in the world and possibly discover her humanity. Its been done before e.g. Star Trek Voyager's borg member Seven rediscovering her humanity over an expanse of 3 seasons even to the point of falling in love. What do you think Mr. Whedon??
    Death in the Whedon's universe is not a universal constant. Spike is obliterated while destroying the hellmouth in BtVS and is magically resurrected in Angel season 5. Buffy sacrifices herself leaping off a platform to save the world in season 5 only to come back from the dead in season 6. Angel gets skewered with a sword by Buffy and is thrust into a hell dimension at the end of BtVS season 2 but returns intact and whole in BtVS season 3.
    Get the point yet or should I also mention about our favorite pointy-eared Vulcan Spock's death and resurrection in the Star Trek movies? It CAN be done--Wes can come back,
    its just a matter of creative imagination and clever writing which Whedon & Co. has truckloads of. Please, Mr. Whedon, bring Wes back, he deserves to live again,
    he deserves to be with Illyria, Illyria needs him back whether she knows it or not. Trust me when I say, if there were ever a season 6 for Angel and Wes somehow did come back,
    it would definitely make for some very interesting stories especially with Illyria being a half-powered demigod demon and all. And just in case Mr. Whedon is reading this, I offer the following as possible scenarios:
    Scenario 1: Just before Wes breathes his last breath, Illyria somehow manages to capture Wes' soul essence and absorbs it into herself. Illyria thinks she can hold on to Wes' soul long enough to perform a certain ritual that will physically bring him back (ala Star Trek 3: Search for Spock). But bringing him back will be the hard part-Wes may not be the same Wes as we remember him.
    Scenario 2: Illyria not having her temporal powers anymore saves Wes by opening a portal to her demon dimension where she searches and eventually finds a shaman(her realm is not entirely dead as we were originally lead to believe) to whom Illyria entrusts Wes' body. Illyria believes the shaman has the healing power to bring back Wes but not without some minor side effects: it will only work with demons not humans. Wes is thus revived but only through the infusion of demon DNA into his body which turns him into a demon halfbreed. All these events take place not in real time which is why Illyria is able to meet up with Angel in the raining alley moments after she leaves the red demon's house. But Illyria's statement "Wes is dead" could be interpreted as her way of not revealing the whole truth to Angel about what she did with Wes(we never did see what happened to Wes' body in the final episode).
    Scenario 3: The Great Powers To Be manage to step in just moments before Wes' last breath to steal his soul because they believe Wes plays an integral role in some great prophecy about the end of the world and Angel. But in order to restore Wes back to his normal body, Angel and co. must venture into the realm of darkness to retrieve Wes' soul. To accomplish this, Angel enlists the help of Willow. While Willow performs her magics to help Angel in his adventure to find Wes' soul in the dark realm, they come upon the soul of Fred. Willow then believes she can restore both Wes and Fred but not without Illyria's consent because to bring back Fred means Illyria must die.
    Scenario 4: The blade that Vale the red demon uses to stab Wes actually has the mystical power to capture and trap the soul essence of the person the knife is buried in, thus as Illyria senses Wes' death is imminent, she is unaware that the blade is actually draining Wes' soul. Once it is revealed that Wes can be resurrected with the help of a witch (Willow), it becomes a race against time for Angel & co. to find and obtain the blade before Wes' soul is trapped forever in some hell dimension.

    So what do ya think Mr. Whedon? When do we get to see an Angel miniseries or tv movie? (maybe after you get frustrated with the politics of the Great Hollywood moviemaking machine)??? I would certainly pay to see an Angel feature film (twice even).
    Anybody else has thoughts about the final episode?
     
  4. Ken_McAlinden

    Ken_McAlinden Producer
    Reviewer

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2001
    Messages:
    6,203
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    9,110
    Location:
    Livonia, MI USA
    Real Name:
    Kenneth McAlinden
  5. Mikel_Cooperman

    Mikel_Cooperman Producer

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2001
    Messages:
    4,183
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Real Name:
    Mikey
    I think it's funny when people think that Joss reads these forums!!

    Charlie aka Kid Samarai, I dont think Joss reads posts but if he does, Joss, can I come over for dinner??
     
  6. Matt Stone

    Matt Stone Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2000
    Messages:
    9,063
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Real Name:
    Matt Stone
    Hahaha [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  7. Eddy-C

    Eddy-C Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2003
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The Angel soundtrack is out today, I'm gonna pick it up in a few weeks. It has all the scores from the show on it and a few singing tracks by Christian Kane and Andy Hallet. Oh, and a extended version of the opening credits song.

    Heres a review http://www.cityofangel.com/behindThe...trkReview.html
     
  8. Darren Haycock

    Darren Haycock Second Unit

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2002
    Messages:
    456
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Avoid the fox store. I bought the angel theme off there for a buck and it's only 64k. Sounds pretty poor. What a rip! I would've gotten it off iTunes, but I can't find it on there...
     
  9. Mikel_Cooperman

    Mikel_Cooperman Producer

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2001
    Messages:
    4,183
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Real Name:
    Mikey
     
  10. Matt Stone

    Matt Stone Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2000
    Messages:
    9,063
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Real Name:
    Matt Stone
    I thought I remembered hearing some fairly negative thoughts about it when it was released internationally. Maybe I'll pick it up anyway.
     
  11. Daryl Stovall

    Daryl Stovall Second Unit

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2002
    Messages:
    455
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I purchased it last night. My only complaint is that it doesn't contain the original theme, just the extended re-mix version with vocals (chanting)...Other than that the score is pretty epic sounding and the song performed by Kim Richey is real pretty but sad because it was the closing theme playing during the ep. with Fred driving off to college with that whimsical smile not knowing all the pain and horror to come.
     
  12. Holadem

    Holadem Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2000
    Messages:
    8,967
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I don't know why I thought that song (which I don't remember at all) was off some new singer's album.

    I remember thinking that was the first time I saw an episode of Angel end WB-style, a la Smallville and other teen shows.

    --
    H
     
  13. Lew Crippen

    Lew Crippen Executive Producer

    Joined:
    May 19, 2002
    Messages:
    12,060
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Wow! This thread really is eternal.
     
  14. Daryl Stovall

    Daryl Stovall Second Unit

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2002
    Messages:
    455
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
  15. Robert Ringwald

    Robert Ringwald Cinematographer

    Joined:
    May 16, 2001
    Messages:
    2,641
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Episode 3 of season 5 was the first one to do that. It was really bad. Some cheerful song played as they ordered take-out and laughed together... cue fade out.

    The episode where Fred drives off is such a horribly depressing ending. [​IMG]
     
  16. Lance Nichols

    Lance Nichols Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 1998
    Messages:
    726
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Oh, the thread is back from some hell dimension, I take it?

    Picked up the soundtrack a couple of weeks back. disapointed with the theme re-mix. Not my favourite, but I was impress with how the music took me back to the last season so quickly, even though I have not watched the discs in a few months.

    Oh, and the scene with Fred driving off, damn, damn, that was heart wrenching.
     
  17. Chris

    Chris Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 1997
    Messages:
    6,788
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    As I raced through Buffy, I spent my vacation and have been racing through Angel. Just finished Season 4. Knowing it was on at the same time as Buffy Season 7, I have to say: I preferred it over Buffy S7, which is now pretty hard to think about.. it's funny, the "crossover" episode where Willow re-ensouled Angel was such at odds with her character's attitudes as a recovering witch on Buffy.. but more enjoyable, and the direction I wished Buffy had went with her character instead that weird Mid-six/seven arch with her.

    The Jasmine thing struck me as very odd also. But, it was at least fun and original, so I played along.

    It appears as though at some point there just came a need in Whedon's heart to keep the Firefly crew working somewhere, in some way, getting a paycheck.
     
  18. Scott-S

    Scott-S Cinematographer
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2001
    Messages:
    2,342
    Likes Received:
    146
    Trophy Points:
    1,610
    Location:
    The Land of Zion
    Real Name:
    Scott
    Wow, a two year old bump. LOL

    Chris, Glad you are liking Angel. Season 5 is really different and I think you will like it. There are some that don't like the major change in season 5, but there are also others that count season 5 as the best.

    I have mixed feelings about it. Let me know when you have started it, and I will tell you why. (don't want to spoil it for you)

    Glad to find another newly formed Buffy/Angel convert. [​IMG]
     
  19. Chris

    Chris Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 1997
    Messages:
    6,788
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I'm about 6 episodes deep. It is different, not sure necessarily that the direction they are going works, but we'll see. It is a MAJOR change for all characters, especially so far sub characters like Lorne & Gunn.

    I think I buy the Cordelia going. She was a great character for the first two or three seasons, and then they seemed to try to make her into.. well, Buffy. And it didn't work so well. You just couldn't picture her as a big fighter, not bitchy or interested in the money aspect. So, it made the twist in Season 4 seem pretty reasonable in that she was a very different character for the whole season.. not a single episode pining for money, time away, or other issues.

    I think they just cut themselves into a box.

    I have neither a yea/nea yet. But it's interesting. Just finished the Mexican Wrestlers ep [​IMG]
     
  20. Scott-S

    Scott-S Cinematographer
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2001
    Messages:
    2,342
    Likes Received:
    146
    Trophy Points:
    1,610
    Location:
    The Land of Zion
    Real Name:
    Scott
    What do you think about Spike showing up again?
     

Share This Page