The DVI/firewire dilemma

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Louis C, Jul 17, 2002.

  1. Louis C

    Louis C Supporting Actor

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    New RPs are coming out with DVI and/or firewire. Should one go with DVI, or both?

    I cannot find any A/V receivers with DVI inputs and outputs, so until there are, one cannot do component switching with sources that have DVI.

    It appears that, unless you care for HD broadcasts OTA, you are beholden to the Sat/Cable vultures who will charge you a rental to receive HD broadcasts. the info I read from Cox cable makes no mention that their set-top boxes will be DVI - so where does that leave us?

    I am guessing that eventually DVI will become the standard, which means that I may just defer all those large dollar purchases until this gets worked out.

    My Panny 27" wil have to do until then I guess...

    Am I missing something in this logic? Please enlighten me on this issue if you can. I am sure a lot of others getting ready to buy a HT are in the same quandry.
     
  2. Josh Lowe

    Josh Lowe Screenwriter

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    I went with neither because neither are proven to be standards that will be adopted. If Firewire becomes a universal standard then you could probably use it with an HTPC. If DVI/HDCP becomes the universal standard then you either have to hope that someone manufactures an "illegal" DVI/HDCP->Component converter or buy a set that's compatible. Since none of this is going to be settled for at least a couple of years, it's not even on my radar as I'll be ready for new hardware by then, anyway.
     
  3. Louis C

    Louis C Supporting Actor

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    Sorry, I don't understand. The TV makers are all coming out with DVI sets. The cable oligopilists are saying HD cable is on the way. There is HD Showtime and HBO, and of course some network HD. IF they are going to make us pay for the converter boxes, shouldn't they at least have a DVI output so a DVI-ready TV can receive a pure digital HD signal?
     
  4. Josh Lowe

    Josh Lowe Screenwriter

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  5. John-Miles

    John-Miles Screenwriter

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    This has been discussed many times before, and well to be honest i am of the opinon (i dont remember who suggested it first tell me and i will credit you for it) that buying a tv with DVI is the worst thing you can do, everything is up in the air right now, and the best thing we can do is simply boycott DVI force the movie industry to take more reasonable steps, they dont need to make all current HDTV's obsolete to ensure their copy protection this whole DVI/Firewire issue is about controllingthe consumer and what we watch and when we watch it. So lets boycott DVI and Firewire (unless they are willing to make a component converter for those of us without DVI and hope this goes away like Divx did.

    Cheers
    John
     
  6. Ken Stokes

    Ken Stokes Agent

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    I think DVI is much more than most think it is. First please understand that I don't like it. DVI will give the content owners what they have sought for many years, the ability to stop users from recording. This is bad and may infringe on the free use legal issues. That aside DVI is coming and soon. Please read the attached press release, all the major players will have DVI on monitors and STBs by the first of the year. The only exception is Mits. which has made a very expensive commitment to FireWire.
    http://db.widescreenreview.com/wsrmm...d=39234&-find=
    OTA signals will not be affected near term but could be included long term. The biggest difference is that the data sent from your STB will be uncompressed and thus unrecordable. Hollywood loves it, the CE manuf. don't mind it because they won't have to pay the license fees for FireWire, and the content to drive sales will be available.
    With almost all of the major CE manufacturers, both the satellite providers, and most of the cable companies behind DVI/HDCP don't kid yourselves. DVI is here and in the very foreseeable future the ability to watch premium HDTV content will be controlled by the industry.
    Do I like it, no. Would I purchase a display device without it, no. If you read the press release above I'd say the debate is over, DVI/HDCP is here.
    Ken
     
  7. John-Miles

    John-Miles Screenwriter

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    Ken, please dont think i am attacking you or your opinons.... but i just read that article and its the biggest pile of garbage i have seen in a long time. the first thing i noticed was that this article was almost a year old, and it stated that sattilite providers would be usint dvi at the beginnign of the year, which i ma pretty sure has been proven to be incorrect. the article also refers many times to 1394 aka IEEE1394 or firewire as somethign that will be incorporated into devices. we ahve yet to see this hit digital cable.

    as well this article said many many times that this move is a huge benefit to the consumer, which we all know to be false. someone is trying to blow smoke in our faces and convince people that this is a good idea.

    basically i agree with youDVI is a bad thing. but i am still unconvinced that it is an unstoppable force that is here to stay. if the claims made in that article were completly accurate then i would suggest that a year alter we would ahve some more definitive answers. instead of companies like panasonic (and i got this straight form panasonic) making blanket statements that basically say they dont knwo where connections are going so it isn't their fault if their tv is no good in a few years.

    the battle is far from over and i think we still ahve some power.
     
  8. SteveDev

    SteveDev Agent

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    Interesting point of note. Most RPTV's are coming out with the DVI input or DVI upgradeability promises (Tosh, Hitachi, JVC, Sony, ...). The only manufacturers I know of that are not offering either in their sets is Panasonic (which, again is astonishing from any business man's viewpoint) and Mitsubishi (who are banking on Firewire). Manufacturers are basically forcing the issue. It seems the only way to boycott DVI would be to buy Panasonic sets (but I'm betting their 03/04 line will have DVI and their current sales will be hurt), or buy old sets!

    Don't get me wrong, I hate this DVI/firewire stuff. It's prolonged my TV purchase for 3 months now and I wish it would go away and never be an issue. But I'd rather have it and not need it than not have it and need it. I don't have the cash to buy two HD RPTV's. Class action lawsuits that are being threatened if DVI or firewire goes through could take years to be resolved, and I'd rather have a TV that works with HD material now with a decent chance of working in the future than no TV at all! And I'm not sure that the suit would be resolved in the purchasers favour since technical obsolescence is a fact of life with electronics. Look at computers, by the time you've bought the top of the line CPU, it's already obsolete and in two years won't work with the most current programs. But the point of this email is not to debate the strength of a legal suit, just thought I'd play devil's advocate for a few sentences.

    I guess if I buy a TV with DVI or DVI upgradeability and Firewire is accepted, then I'll have the same problems!
     
  9. Louis C

    Louis C Supporting Actor

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    Wow! I had no idea there would be such strong opinions on this subject. I really appreciate all the views here.

    Could someone please explain to this newbie why the technology 'promised' by dvi is bogus or not bogus? What I mean is that I am told (sorry, I forget the source) that dvi enables a better picture because the signal would no longer have to go from digital to analog, back and forth, and that you don't convert to analog until it reaches the screen display. Is this accurate or inaccurate? I would assume if it is inaccurate, that the consumer has no motivation to buy a dvi compatible set other than the fear of future broadcasts not being receivable. If it is accurate, the conspirators have an enticement to consumers to actually want this.

    Please enlighten me!
     
  10. Ken Stokes

    Ken Stokes Agent

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    John,
    The date shown is incorrect, the press release was actually posted two months ago. They include Firwire as a means to send the data to a recorder and as an alternative link between components.

    That aside the new Hitachi sets (some available now) will all have DVI/HDCP with their top of the line offering FireWire also.

    All of the new Sony sets this fall will have DVI, this is especially noteworthy as they are dropping the FireWire connection that is available on some current models.

    The STB from Zenith that will be released in September will use DVI.

    Toshiba is "guaranteeing" DVI upgradeablility on their new sets.

    Mits. will not have DVI and Panasonic will have nothing.

    John if I'm wrong then I'm happy, but evetything I've read and been told seems in line. I think it's been downplayed some for two reasons. First there is a large standing invertory that must be cleared, second I think these companies know the potential backlash from us. The people who spent the money on HD sets already.

    As I said I don't like it but it's here. Go to One Call and look at the new Sony sets, or Sears.com and look at the new Hitachis (20 series), it's the real deal.

    Louis,
    I'm not an extremely technical guy so I'm sure someone else can give you a better answer. My understanding is that DVI offers improvement in text (computer) applications but offers little benefit in other areas. Like most marketing claims I think there is probably 5% truth in the stated benefits. The only thing DVI does is tranmit an uncompressed signal which is unrecordable. This assures Studios that when you try to record off HBO the screen will go black. Isn't technology grand!

    Ken
     
  11. Drew Eckhardt

    Drew Eckhardt Stunt Coordinator

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    The logical choice will be DVI because it's theoretically harder to pirate (you have a gigabit signal, rather than one on the order of megabits for which there are standard computer cards) and offers better support for on-screen displays (like advertising from your cable company).

    In the future, DVI will give you a much (4X the resolution) better picture because the content providers will require 'constrained output' on the analog connections (anything more detailed than 960x540 will be contractually forbidden).

    Right now, you might pick up a tiny bit of quality because the DVI doesn't require detail-robbing filtering to meet RF emissions requirements.
     
  12. John-Miles

    John-Miles Screenwriter

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    Ken, you mention that Toshiba is promising upgradability on their new sets, do you know if this would also apply to the 36HFX71 i recently purchased? If it does then i cna say for myself i dont much care what ahppens, but I am still against DVI.

    unfortunately if the date on that article is incorrect then things are looking pretty grim for those of us who dont want to see DVI.

    But i will note for the recored that people have said the new Sony line has DVi, but that is only in the US, in Canada it is only the 32HS500 which will have DVI the rest of the sets will not. and that is straight from my most recent canadian evolve magazine.

    WTD WTD

    Cheers
    John
     
  13. SteveDev

    SteveDev Agent

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    My understanding is that Toshiba tried to come up with a DVI jack pack for the XX81 models and previous models but decided to abandon this initiative as it was too costly to do so.

    I got this response from a Toshiba Cust. Service rep when asking about the 50H81 so I assume the same for all pre-XX82 models.
     
  14. Ken Stokes

    Ken Stokes Agent

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    John,
    Good news if the rest of the world is not getting DVI from Sony, maybe it's just a market appeasement. Are you sure that this was the WV600 or WV700 series? I would like to think that is just nothing!
    I have no idea about the upgrade-ability of previous models. If you read below you will see how to find the Toshiba information. Unfortunately I have very little faith in the concern of the CE industry for previous customers. Not just Toshiba but all of them. Pioneer has flatly stated "sorry but we can't be responsible for the future", I'm sure the grief is killing them.[​IMG]
    Steve,
    I just checked the Toshiba web site and the HX82 series has DVI installed with rest of the models offering upgrade-ability. You can access this information by going to "customer solutions" and downloading the manual for the new models.
    Ken
     
  15. Kirk Gunn

    Kirk Gunn Screenwriter

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    Are there any current source components outputting DVI for an RPTV input ?

    rant[on]

    I would personally like to thank all the industry and government reps that have taken this wonderful HDTV technology and totally hosed up it's development.
     
  16. John-Miles

    John-Miles Screenwriter

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    Ken,

    i will double... rather at this point triple check when i get home, but the ONLY sony tv released in Canada with DVI is the 32HS500, but again just to be sure i will check again tonight.

    I agree panasonic must be feeling it *touches heart* right here with regards to our plight.

    also one thing that i must admit i am still not clear on is the DVI/HDCP issue, I am still of the belief that not only will you need a DVI input, but also a decoder.... otherwise all somone has to do is put a DVI input on a computer....

    and i am positive all these tv's with DVI inputs dont ahve HDCP decoders.
     
  17. John-Miles

    John-Miles Screenwriter

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    I just checked again to be sure

    the ONLY sony tv in canada with a DVI input is the KV32HS500

    perhaps they are trying to appease the masses.
     

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