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The Cinematography Discussion #2 (1 Viewer)

Mike Broadman

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John, FWIW, I share your view of the film. But that is no surprise, because I seem to share your view about pretty much everything related to cinema (at least from what I read).

I only saw the film once and don't remember much detail, only the emotions it conveyed. That is, I remember what it did, and specific scenes, but don't remember what angles were used, how shadow and light were employed, etc. I think that's a credit to the film, and a fine example of cinematography being used to tell a story, even if the story is more about thought and emotion than actions.

Damnit, now this thread makes me want to buy the DVD.
 

JohnRice

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Uh Oh! Agee is knocking LOTR. Can't that get him banned? :p)


The concept of exclusion is so important in film and it is used so rarely anymore. You horror fans (is Justin out there?) should particularly appreciate the power of exclusion. The greatest horror films are always the ones which don't show you what is scary. I bring this up because the entire scene of Frank's murder is shot elsewhere. We only hear what is going on in the background. Yes, that will be a major aspect of what I discuss in the second part. There is a type of horror to how it is done.


Also, I want to make sure everyone knows that when I say I don't share their interpretation, that does not mean I am saying they are wrong. We all have different experiences and will react to events differently.


I keep thinking about the revenge aspect Andy brought up. I didn't capture any shots from Richard's murder scene, but wouldn't mind discussing why it was done the way it was. After thinking about Andy's comments a bit further, I started wondering if Matt wasn't acting at least a little out of revenge, since he breaks with the plan and kills Richard as soon as they arrive at the cabin. I'm inclined to think it was not revenge, but another thing Andy pointed out, that Matt started feeling himself having second thoughts because Richard was being so decent. I tend to think he felt he should kill him right at that moment before he changed his mind and not go through with it.

One other thing I guess I'll say a little about now is that In the Bedroom is not filled with visually stunning photography. Nobody will come away from it remembering the beautiful imagery. What it does have is effective photography, which reacts to the events in a very human way. This will become more clear once part 2 is posted. I'm a big Classical music fan, and a comparison would be that ITB is not like Tchaikovsky or Rachmaninoff, where the audience walks out humming the tunes. It is more like Mahler. while I find Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff more listenable, I find Mahler much more impressive.
 

Simon_Lepine

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Great thread!

Lots of example on exclusion:

- The ear scene in Reservoir Dogs. It was also shot explicitly but shown the other way because it was more effective.

- Jeeper Creepers: an effective horror movie, very creepy, until you actually see the killer. Then it starts to suck badly.

- Night of the Demon by Jacques Tourneur: same thing, once we see the Demon, the suspense is ruined.

- Blair Witch Project, etc

But Agee, how differently would you do LOTR? When the battles are inherent to the story, you can't constantly exclude them.
 

Lew Crippen

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But Agee, how differently would you do LOTR? When the battles are inherent to the story, you can't constantly exclude them.
I think that he is referring to more that just the battles. Or at least had I written that comment, I would have meant it to be inclusive of the style of the film. And I like the films, but I understand Agee’s point.

On the flip side I don’t much care for In the Bedroom, but I do understand John’s points (so far), and in any case my view of the film won’t get in my way of considering the cinematography.
 

JohnRice

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Simon, another example that came immediately to mind as I read your post is Brotherhood of the Wolf. I thought it was exceptionally done, until the beast was finally seen. The scene with the young woman and the lamb was particularly good.


I also completely understand not liking In the Bedroom. In a way, it is almost absurdly minimalist. For me, as I watched it a few times, I became completely amazed at how it was done. As much as I appreciate the film though, it is not even close to being a favorite like the last one I discussed, The Man in the Moon is.


As far as the LOTR comments. I agree. I'm not saying I would prefer them not showing the battles, but I would have liked more darkness to the way the films are done, not just the way they look.


BTW, there is a movie being released (finally) on DVD this fall which I think just might be my next choice for discussion in #3....
 

TheLongshot

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Not quite sure I understand Agee's point about LotR, but I can certainly appriciate the fact that Hollywood films nowadays try and show too much. What they don't understand is that no amount of FX is going to rival the imagination of the viewer.

Jason
 

Kirk Tsai

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I've also seen a lot of comments about how Frank's murder is destructive to his parents' marriage. I see it very differently. In the end it leads to a major catharsis in their lives.
I was with you on everything until this point, John. I too do not look at In The Bedroom as a revenge picture. It's more about dealing with grief, and the insufferable life that comes with it, both of which reveal a major rift that was between the parents which had not surfaced before.

But I do not find the finale of the movie to be a catharsis between the two. Instead, I imagine the two will live on only to continue to suffer. The final moment between the two of them is of mutual understanding, and of absolute dead end.
 

JohnRice

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Ah Kirk, I never said when I think the catharsis happens. But that comes in the second part of my discussion. I also think I want to watch the film once through completely before really discussing that. While putting this together I watch certain segments a few times, which sometimes causes me to lose sight of the big picture.

One thing about the audience being so removed from the film is that it seems to create vastly different inpressions. I think this film was a better choice than I even thought it was.


I planned on this round of films being done differently from the first. It will be a lot more stretched out, with probably at least a month between beginning the discussion of each film. I only ended up doing my bit in two parts because I ran out of steam. Now I've decided to wait to post the second part this coming weekend, since we have some nice discussion going already.


I can't remember if I said this already, but there is a film coming out on DVD in November which I think I want to discuss for the next thread. Anyone else interested in contributing a discussion on a particular film in that one as well? I know there is at least one.
 

JohnRice

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I swear part 2 of my discussion is actually coming.

I just wanted to post that most Blockbusters will be having a 25% off used DVDs sale starting Tuesday 8/12, and my local one has a stack of copies of In the Bedroom marked at $6.99, which makes it $5.25 on sale. No reason not to pick up a copy.
 

Andrew_Sch

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It's pretty interesting what you said about photography being an art of exclusion, I never thought of it like that before, but it makes sense now that I do. I think the way this movie was photographed, particularly the decision not to show Frank getting his black eye, and another event which I'm sure will discussed later, works extremely well because it takes the focus off of the two younger men, who are not really the focus of the movie even though their confrontations are the basis for it, and keeps the focus mostly on Frank's parents and how they deal with the situation.
 

JohnRice

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Thanks for the comment, Andrew. It really is just a way of looking at it, and I hope Andy Olivera didn't think I was being combative, but I seriously do think it is one of the most productive approaches to photography. In fact, it fits in a certain way with Michelangelo's famous comment about sculpture, which is possibly the only art other than photography that really is subtractive rather than additive. He said the sculpture is already in the stone, he just has to remove the excess.
 

JohnRice

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[c]







Part 2



I’m going to finish up the discussion primarily with 2 different scenes. The first is the final confrontation between Frank and Richard. Frank has gone over to Natalie’s house after Richard has basically ransacked it. I want to point out that up until this scene, the camera has been fairly rock solid throughout the film. There have been very few panning shots and virtually no dollies. Many times, when the camera switched from one person to another, it has been done with cuts instead of pans. Starting with this scene, the camera comes progressively more “unhinged.” It is now handheld and moves frantically from overturnes tables to broken curtain rods. This visual panic only increases when Richard returns to the house





and the camera starts moving frantically about, jumping out of focus





and back in again.





Once again, we are removed from the action most films would emphasize, as we watch Natalie and Frank fumble about a bit, while Richard yells and pounds on the door in the background.





When we do finally see Richard, he has stopped yelling, but the sight of him in this quieter state is far from comforting.





Frank convinces Richard to leave, annd we see him walking around the side of the house. The camera stays on Frank, creating a certain amount of tension, until Richard breaks in the front door





and the camera immediately switches to Natalie, who is upstairs with the children.





The camera continues to move frantically around the room, jumping in and out of focus as Natalie tries to get the children to stay put, and we hear a heated argument going on downstairs.








The camera continues to follow Natalie as she finally starts making her way back downstairs





and we see only her reaction, as a gunshot is heard.





Even at this point, the audience it kept removed from the “focus” of the scene for several more seconds, as Richard moves out of the frame,





and Natalie reacts to what has happened.







It is only now that the audience finally sees Frank, in what is a startingly graphic, gruesome shot.


The camera switches to Richard, quietly sitting at the dining room table.





The children are just seen running down the stairs, but the scene ends before they arrive.





I was impressed by how subtlely the camera captures the conflict within Matt as he watches life going on, despite his personal feelings of tragedy. We see him through a glass door as he walks down a hallway during Frank’s wake.





He pauses to look across the room full of people.





The contrast between his grief and the people in the room carrying on their lives, is subtle but effective.





Also, notice how the color scheme of the film has completely changed.


In what I think is one of the most striking shots in the entire film, we see Matt talking to his 2 best friends, as we see the reflection of an unidentified woman drinking coffee. No matter how incomprehensible it is to Matt, life goes on.





The theme of this scene is also demonstrated wonderfully, though quite differently, in the funeral procession scene early in The Moonlight Mile. I suggest giving it a look.





The last scene I will discuss is the major argument between Matt and Ruth several days after Frank’s death. Once again, the camera is rock solid as the scene begins, but it subtlely begins to shake as the argument develops,





eventually building to a type of convulsions as the argument reaches a peak.





The problem is, the characters are avoiding what is actually bothering them. Once Ruth finally states what is actually on her mind, the camera instantly stops “convulsing” and the couple is able to come back together.





I am absolutely impressed with the writing and shooting of this scene and how it molds the film. I am equally surprised how I seem to have such a radically different interpretation of it from most other people I have heard feedback from. The way I see it, these are intelligent, loving and committed people who are able to have a major, even life altering argument without it being the end of their relationship. Even though Matt completely believes what he has said to Ruth, he comes back and apologizes, saying “nobody should have to hear things like that.” He is probably right. This is the scene I see as the catharsis between these two characters. It is not the end of their marriage, but the marriage in fact survives because of it. I tend to think so many others have such a completely different interpretation of this scene because this stuff doesn’t happen in the movies. When any couple has this significant of a rift in their relationship they avoid it, and they eventually split up or live out their lives inflicting misery on each other. Worse yet, so many of us fashion our personal relationships on the same principle.





Well, that’s it. There are many other scenes I captured stills from and many other things I could say, but I have to draw the line somewhere. Some scenes in particular I will mention are the scene of Matt preparing to tell Annie about Frank’s death, the “summation” of Frank’s life during the wake, the series of “stills” shown during the funeral and the vignette of scenes showing Matt and Annie barely coping with their situation and mutual conflict after the wake. I’m hoping folks will bring up other topics I haven’t touched on. There are planty of them.


So, let’s get some discussion going!



[/c]
 

JohnRice

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Well, all the small images in the discussion are now switched over to the HTF server. I still need to do a little fine tuning to the large, linked images in the second part. The large images in the first part are already as good as they will get. Unfortunately, the originals I am working from are not particularly good, so there is only so much I can do.




Anyone going to say anything?
 

Steve Felix

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In what I think is one of the most striking shots in the entire film, we see Matt talking to his 2 best friends, as we see the reflection of an unidentified woman drinking coffee. No matter how incomprehensible it is to Matt, life goes on.
And almost needless to say, the door frame looks like a jail door blocking him from that life; especially in your resized image.

I think the film works well and earns its power despite the inherently manipulative subject matter. It gets better after the murder, when it's less sensational and gets down to what it's really about.

I don't know how much I'll be able to post in this thread, but I'll definitely be reading.:) Thanks for the effort.:emoji_thumbsup:
 

Mike Broadman

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First of all, FWIW, I do share your feelings about their marriage. It's been a while since I saw the film, but I remember walking away with the feeling that their marriage will continue strongly and as "happy" as possible under the circumstances.

Re: watching life carrying on et al, I think this may have been carried into the gardening scene. I don't remember if it's before or after the scenes you described (I'm guessing after), but it's just this scene of him gardening. The flowers are gorgeous, the sun is shining, but he's just going through the motions. Life is all around him and he can't see it or doesn't want to. It's a combination of two "basic" styles of cinematography- the Braveheart-ish scenery lovely photo stuff and the documentary-style film for storytelling kind of thing on the guy himself.

I'm going to try to watch this movie again so that I can add more to the discussion.
 

JohnRice

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Re: watching life carrying on et al, I think this may have been carried into the gardening scene. I don't remember if it's before or after the scenes you described (I'm guessing after), but it's just this scene of him gardening. The flowers are gorgeous, the sun is shining, but he's just going through the motions. Life is all around him and he can't see it or doesn't want to.
Mike, the sequence you are talking about kind of extends out of the wake. Matt goes up to Frank's room, we get a sort of visual summation of who Frank really was and it ends with Matt quietly breaking down for the only time in the film. It then moves on to a few basically silent scenes of the couple just existing. One of those scenes is Matt mowing the lawn, but there is also both of them watching TV and then a striking shot of Annie watching Matt through a window. The whole sequence is quite somber.
 

Steve Felix

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That the bars don't jump out at everyone is a sign of a fine hand at the camera, I'm guessing. If I were a DP planning that shot I probably would have feared that it was too obvious and pretentious, but it's apparently not since as a viewer it went over my head and worked on me as intended. I like to think I'm getting better about appreciating film in a more purely visual sense, but the better a movie is, the harder it is to see what's making it that way.

why do you say the movie is manipulative?
I must have been too concise for my own good, because what I meant was that it wasn't notably manipulative given that the subject is the sudden death of a child. It walks the line, though, because nearly everyone would have a strong emotional reaction to that occurrence without the filmmakers having to earn the feeling on their own.

And "to manipulate," as I use it to refer to films, would mean that broad strokes are used to get an easy emotional reaction from gullible people. So I wouldn't say all drama intends to do this, even if it does intend to get an honest reaction. But again, I'm not trying to criticize In The Bedroom, as it does a lot more than kill a person for the easy impact.
 

Agee Bassett

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Courtesy of Netflix, I screened this movie a few nights ago. Although I don't believe I have much insight to offer re the cinematography, which has already been neatly pointed up by John, I am rather perplexed as to why the filmmakers felt the need for the plot turn 2/3 of the way into the movie. IMO, up until that point the film felt to me like it was capably making its points in its investigation of the dynamics of Matt and Annie's marriage and the direction it took in the wake of Frank's murder. Why the need for the unconvincing, elaborate twist of Matt abducting and killing Richard? To me it came off as simply redundant effect in light of the drama Matt and Annie's relationship offers in of itself.

Perhaps I am not seeing this development in the right perspective. I would appreciate a little feedback on this front if it is not too tangental to the topic of this thread.
 

JohnRice

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Agee, I never really interpreted the murder of Richard as a plot "turn." I think people tend to see it that way because the audience is never shown any of the, it would seem, extensive planning that went into the murder and we only get a cursory exposure to a major part of why they did it. Matt has conversations with his friend (who assisted in the murder) about moving and there are many subtle visual references to the constant reminders of Richard. there is a scene where Matt is visiting hif friend's house and I think this is when the plan to murder richard first comes up. Of course, we don't see any of that. Annie even starts seeing Richard everywhere, not always sure if it is her imagination or not. It becomes apparent Richard has a good chance of getting off and I think the two of them just review their options in an oddly pragmatic way.
 

JohnRice

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Two other things.

I'm really losing my head, I guess.


First, Sissy Spacek's character is named "Ruth" not "Annie." Not sure where that came from. How much attention did I pay to the movie, anyway? :p)


Second, I did a little work to the linked, large images in part 2 and they are on the server now. Still not great, but an improvement.
 

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