The Chaplin Collection (Warner and M2K): reactions? (1 Viewer)

[oscar_merkx]

well that is true as Chaplin is a genuis and you want what is the best out there. So sometimes £££$$$ is irrelevant but not to the point where you need to pay extortionate amounts of money.

cheers

Oscar

 

[Patrick McCart]

Does the MK2 edition of City Lights include the Carl Davis re-recording?

 

[Mark Zimmer]

Well, crap. I wish I'd known they were going to use PAL transfers before I laid out the bucks for this set....if I'd have bought it at all I'd have gone for the French set that David Shepard was actually oohing and aahing about (and which I have now read more closely, to my chagrin). Well, Warner won't get my money for the rest of them, that's for sure. Time to sell this turkey on half.com.

And of course, there is the vandalism that Chaplin did to the films themselves, making the original Image releases all the more essential....

 

[CraigF]

Well, I don't think it's exactly a *turkey*. If you're talking about the main features of the Vol. 1 set. The two Bill compared (TGD, TGR) he said looked about equal or better to his Image versions, in his opinion. Future main features might be turkies though. BTW I haven't watched all the discs in the set yet. R2/PAL discs aren't an option for me. This PAL master thing is bothersome though, and seems to be becoming more common in Canada with certain "significant" releases. Now it strikes the U.S.A.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Just a reminder, that people that bought this dvd set need to judge for themselves before just accepting another's opinion about them.

 

[CraigF]

Well, I don't have any Image discs to compare. And I have to admit, I have some other "Canadian" discs that were transferred from PAL to NTSC too...and it doesn't bother me at all (RP82 -> 51" RPTV).


Edit: I mean bother me visually, technically is another matter.

 

[Patrick McCart]

Glenn Erickson has some reviews for The Gold Rush and Modern Times up on DVDTalk. He gives them a quite positive review.

Perhaps we're being too hard?

 

[DeeF]

Glenn does say, about the Gold Rush, that the older, restored version is better. And that the contrast was pushed up beyond what he normally likes.
Too much contrast: too little detail.

I really don't have much to complain about, since I own the Image disks as well as these newer ones.

 

[Bill Burns]

CraigF wrote:

: I primarily checked this strictly for the sun's rays mentioned in my previous post. They remain nicely detailed throughout the sequence in Image's release, just as I thought. While contrast improves on MK2's edition, I find the contrast of Image's release perfectly acceptable.

Just to be clear, the two which improve significantly over Image (among the six I've compared: The Gold Rush in its full release and five more in the clips provided in the "Chaplin Collection" preview -- and all strictly in my opinion, of course ), are The Gold Rush and A King in New York.

Robert's right -- to each their own, any review represents only one recommendation/opinion, and as I've said, I expect many will find these perfectly acceptable; I do hope most are satisfied with the discs, because the Images are hard to come by. But for whatever my opinion's worth, I'd only personally recommend buying TGR and AKINY at this point if you have the Images, and if you don't, I'd at the very least suggest that City Lights and (possibly) A Woman of Paris, based upon their MK2 preview clips, will prove a better value in their Image editions (over native PAL MK2s as well, for reasons detailed earlier), even if it takes a bit o' hunting to find them -- and of course if the final releases of the titles I've compared by their preview clips (see my earlier post) differ in quality from those clips, then these comparisons won't be of much use. I'd be surprised if they'd use inferior sources for a preview designed to sell discs, though.

Also keep in mind that on-line reviews have so far seemed to have little if any problem with Topper, whose Hallmark conversion (if that's what it is -- motion blur and interlace flutter abound) for Artisan is much, much worse than any of the Chaplins. Topper Returns has none of this trouble, though, and to my eyes looks much better as a result, despite a weaker contrast range. "Different strokes for different folks."

At any rate, I hope that clarifies my reaction. I very much look forward to reading the continuing reactions of others, particularly to the full releases, of which I've only thusfar seen The Gold Rush.

In response to a couple of earlier posts:

My hat has long been off to David Shepard, as Mr. Harris rightly points out it should be: he's been the foremost champion of silent films on home video more or less since the birth of home video. The silent game takes place in a big ballpark, though, with plenty of room for many players and many fans -- the more the merrier, and I certainly welcome and congratulate Warner Bros. for beginning their odyssey through the early years of cinema, an odyssey which is rumored (has it yet been confirmed?) to bring us several eagerly awaited Lon Chaney features from the studio in late October. Surely in native NTSC? You know we love you, Warner Bros..

As to the Carl Davis score, Patrick: I dunno. The clip used in the preview seems to have Chaplin's score, but I'm not certain of this. A final supplements list for the as yet unannounced (in Region 1) MK2 City Lights should settle the matter.

 

[Scott Calvert]

Putting aside the picture quality discussion for just a moment...

What exactly are the differences between the Image versions and the new M2K versions? I know that the M2K version of The Gold Rush has the original 1925 version included as a supplement (thank heavens), but what about the rest? Are they recuts or what?

 

[CraigF]

Sorry Bill. I interpreted your point 4. as meaning The Great Dictator appeared "as good as" the Image, though different, as far as you looked at it...didn't mean to put words in your mouth!

 

[Bill Burns]

Oh, hey, no trouble at all, Craig -- I just didn't want to leave any false impressions.

 

[Damin J Toell]

What exactly are the differences between the Image versions and the new M2K versions? I know that the M2K version of The Gold Rush has the original 1925 version included as a supplement (thank heavens), but what about the rest? Are they recuts or what?

David Shepard cataloged the changes here. They mostly represent changes that Chaplin himself made to the films; Shepard/Image tried to present the original versions when possible, and the Warner/MK2 discs represent the changed versions. The only exception is with Gold Rush. While Shepard was only able to present the modified version, he changed the aperture back to what was used on the original silent version; Shepard's version is somewhat of a hybrid. And, also, it's the only film for which Warner/MK2 presents the modified and the original versions.

DJ

 

[Derek_McL]

Thanks Bill for all those interesting comparisons. I always thought City Lights looks just great in the Image disc and I'm glad I've got that one along with Modern Times (Image). The PAL motion blur issue won't be a problem here in the UK and the rest don't sound too bad. The interesting thing about A Woman of Paris and A King in New York is according to all pre-orders for release (in Region 2, at least) these will be available on two separate discs as individual items in the collection rather than paired together as in the Image disc. So if one transfer is very superior to the other or you only want to buy/upgrade one of these films it looks like you will be able to do this.

 

[Mark Zimmer]

But be aware that the recuts on both of these films are quite substantial.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

Has anyone who owns a player with aspect ratio control played any of these new Chaplin discs yet? I played The Great Dictator last night on my Panasonic RP-91, and when the player is in AUTO mode, the disc image for this title gets zoomed/scaled as if the disc is flagged as a non-anamorphic widescreen disc. I had to manually select the SHRINK mode to watch the film in its proper aspect ratio. The menus and FBI notices were also zoomed.

This could be a real problem for owners of players that do not allow for manual override of the scaling (such as some JVC models).

I have never had this problem with any other full frame discs.

 

[Bill Burns]

A brief update:

In toying with noise reduction settings while trying to improve the overall quality of Topper (Artisan -- nothing helped on my Sony C650D), I also changed my "Pause Mode" setting in player set-up, from "Auto" to "Frame." The first modifies freeze frames to better approximate film, while the latter shows it just as it is on disc. I found no difference at all on major studio (NTSC sourced) product, so just left it on "Auto" when first setting up the player years ago. When I changed it for Topper, though, I left it on "Frame" and forgot that I had done so.

While re-watched Kino's Blind Husbands/The Great Gabbo last night, and again noting the freeze frame ghosting that I at first thought was unnoticeable at full motion, I became convinced I was seeing very minor motion blur. All of a sudden. Argh. I had never found this with Kino product before, and looking at the "ghost" frames in both films convinced me that something had to be screwy.

Well, sure enough, with a minor application of the ol' noggin, I recollected that I had changed the Pause Mode setting on my player a few weeks earlier. So I changed it back to "Auto." And what do you know -- all freeze frame ghosting in the Kino disc disappeared, and I can now recommend that disc wholeheartedly -- freeze frames look just fine, and the films, while showing their age with damage and contrast issues, remain well-detailed and very entertaining (particularly the very odd, and decidedly creepy, The Great Gabbo). Mystery solved: I wasn't seeing motion blur, just the various artifacts of non-standard speed (for Blind Husbands) -- possible stretch printing, the tricks of video necessary to reduce below the 24 fps of sound film, etc.). The films look great for their vintage (again, with the understanding that damage and contrast "temperature blooming" issues, the first primarily, and extensively, on BH, the second primarily on TGG, abound, though the actual contrast range of TGG is excellent), and the fact that I saw ghosting in freeze frame was coloring my perception of full motion. With Pause Mode in Auto, the freeze frame ghosting vanished (the way of all ghosts, I reckon ), and Kino's disc shined.

Well, the moment of truth would be the Chaplin previews. Now, the WB/Image comparisons were all done in "Frame" mode, so on equal footing the Image's do, indeed, excel in freeze frame. But the story's not quite told. By returning to "Auto," the WB Chaplins continued to display ghosting (it did not disappear, and I assumed it wouldn't based on the screen shots earlier in this thread), but it was minimized and not nearly so intrusive. Better yet, on the previews, the ratio of good frame to bad seemed to change to 4:2, and there were many instances of little motion or no motion where ghosting was not immediately evident at all. This was not the case under "Frame." I went ahead and compared The Great Dictator again with this player manipulation in full swing ("Auto" Mode engaged). And ... and ... I go back to what I originally said: trade-offs are the name of the game, but if you don't have the Images, I'm sure most -- and the bigger the screen, the bigger the problems, of course -- will be very happy with all of the Region 1 MK2s, excepting only City Lights and A Woman of Paris for reasons detailed earlier. Back to the Great Dictator comparison: those rays of sunshine didn't seem to puddle quite so badly on MK2's disc. They still did, more so than Image's, and the "pop" back to sharp resolution was still noticeable ... but now I see a minor version of this on the Image disc, as well, and it may be as minor as it is because the contrast range is more narrow -- the rays aren't as defined in the first place. I also noticed a small bit of color banding in the rays on the Image disc which is not present on the MK2 disc. And as with The Gold Rush and the other MK2s, a tighter frame and a bit of motion blur is the downside to several very important upsides, including a much better contrast range and an impressive digital restoration of the image, removing a great deal of wear and debris.

Trade-offs, as I said. But if you have a "Pause" Mode or something like it on your player, you may find that the difference between the Images and the MK2s narrows when player manipulation is engaged. My player does not have "block noise reduction," so I do not know if this or the other frame manipulation options of higher end players would be of further help. I also do not know if the situation changes at all with progressive playback (something I'd very much like to know for Topper, with its interlace flicker; such flicker is not found on any of the MK2 Chaplin clips, nor on The Gold Rush, just to be clear). But with Pause Mode returned to "Auto," freeze frames improve quite a bit on the MK2s, ghosting on the Kino disc is eliminated entirely, and of course there remains no ghosting at all on the Images (though I didn't recheck the two that had shown it in some form previously; I assume it is now gone from these as well).

A player with all picture manipulation modes turned off shows the quality of a disc at its truest, I presume, so I consider my earlier comments correct to my experience. But most players today offer a full suite of image manipulations, and of course progressive playback, and my latest player, bought in 2000, may not reflect just how extensively these problems may be remedied by such.

In short: Excepting only the two titles detailed earlier, all MK2s in Region 1 should be pleasing for those without the Images (and for those with the Images, the improvements may well be worth the drawbacks). I'm drawing this conclusion based on six comparisons, also detailed earlier. And I would encourage Image owners to supplement their Image editions of A King in New York (when it's released) and The Gold Rush. Native PAL folk need not give the Images a second glance for picture quality (again, excepting the two titles detailed earlier), but may want them for alternate cuts/framing.

And that's all the news fit for print (perhaps a bit more, actually). I wanted to update with details about "Pause Mode" improvements on my player, a retraction of earlier comments about Kino's Blind Husbands/The Great Gabbo (which I now enthusiastically recommend, once again), but to further explain that while image quality unquestionably improves on discs such as The Great Dictator when going from Image to MK2, it's at the expense of a bit of continuing motion blur that you may be able to reduce, but on my player never fully eliminate, from the MK2s, via player settings.

I recommend all MK2s save City Lights and A Woman of Paris, based on these five comparisons in my earlier post and the full release of The Gold Rush, and I encourage everyone to see (and post) just what can be done with various image manipulation settings to further minimize ghosting. PAL users can have a good laugh at us NTSCers while we do so.

That's it, that's all (not so brief, I guess). I won't comment again, but I didn't want to leave an incomplete picture of what I'm seeing. We now return you to your regular broadcast (and the further comments of others).

 

[John Hodson]

My Chaplin Collection box arrived this morning and I've only had chance to have a brief look at The Gold Rush.

For someone who had previously only experienced these films on prints that looked as if they had been dragged along the studio floor then screened at twice the proper speed, this is a revelation. It's almost like seeing a modern homage, shot only yesterday with lookalike actors and designed to look only slightly of the period. It's uncanny to see the film this new, this perfect, and not a little unsettling - but I'll get used to it!

I'm delighted, I got it at the right price, I have no qualms whatsoever about buying the R1...and I promise not to freeze frames, step frames (try to look outside the frame) or whatever in search of 'ghosts'; it's good enough Warners and Mk2 have done a great job in bringing these works of a long dead genius back to life.

---
So many films, so little time...

 

[Roderick Gauci]

Chaplin is my least favorite of the great trio of Silent comics, the others of course being Buster Keaton and Harold Lloyd. While many feel that his best work was done in the shorts he filmed at the Essanay and Mutual studios, I much prefer his more mature features – and even the less typical (i.e. more ambitious and personal) ones like THE GREAT DICTATOR (1940), MONSIEUR VERDOUX (1947) and LIMELIGHT (1952). Still, I find his screen character largely narcissistic and unsympathetic – hence my “low” opinion of him. This does not prevent me, however, from considering THE KID (1921), THE GOLD RUSH (1925), CITY LIGHTS (1931) and MODERN TIMES (1936) among the greatest comedies (and films) ever made.

I had ordered Warners’ R1 CHAPLIN GIFT SET (from DVD Soon) before I read the conflicting online reviews. I guess I’ll have to decide for myself whether it was worth it or not! Even so, they only cost me about $55 (or $6.88 per disc) in all! When the Image discs went out of print, I had not yet purchased any and I managed to pick up almost all of them in the ensuing frenzy – the only ones I was left without were THE KID/A DOG’S LIFE (1918) and MONSIEUR VERDOUX. Actually, they have been lying in my “To Watch” pile for more than a year now – since these films have been constantly showing up on TV all through my life, I’m not in a particular hurry to revisit them but I’ll surely make up for it when the Warners discs start hitting my doorstep!


P.S. Bill, thanks for the heads up regarding Kino's BLIND HUSBANDS (1919)/THE GREAT GABBO (1929). I had been meaning to pick up all three of Kino's Erich von Stroheim DVDs but my online supplier of choice for R1 titles, DVD Empire, only has the old Image edition of FOOLISH WIVES (1922) - in fact, I had e-mailed them about this but to no avail (so far). I assume you bought all three of them yourself, Bill - could you tell me from where you purchased the von Stroheim DVDs?

 

[Jan H]

Just picked the set up at Sam's Club. Without caring much about the minutiae regarding the accuracy of the video transfer, I thought The Great Dictator looked outstanding for a 63-year old film. It was the first time I'd seen it, and I can safely say it's the best movie I've seen this year. Chaplin gets overly preachy at the end, it's true, but I laughed, and was moved. How many movies can you say that about? BTW, the documentary on the 2nd disc is astounding. Looking forward to seeing the other discs ASAP.