The Chaplin Collection (Warner and M2K): reactions? (1 Viewer)

[Gary Tooze]

Can you say "Excessive Edge Enhancement" ?

I am very disappointed in the Warner Chaplin releases and will be comparing LimeLight and The Great Dictator to their respective Image releases in the next few days. Here is my complaint of Modern Times:

IMAGE ENTERTAINMENT



WARNER




http://www.compare.dvdbeaver.com/

 

[Tim RH]

To be quite honest, I don't see ANY edge enhancement in EITHER of those screenshots.

 

[Damin J Toell]

I, too, fail to notice any enhancement or haloing in any of Gary's screenshots of the Warner/MK2 disc in his comparison. The Warner/MK2 transfer certainly has greater contrast (and, it's worth noting that David Shepard himself praised these transfers very highly when they were first issued in France), but I see no enhancement problem. The only problem(s) I can see are that it's a PAL conversion, and has some issues as a result of that. The image quality itself looks wonderful to me. It looks as if Warner/MK2 was able to achieve much truer whites and blacks, whereas Shepard was limited to shades of gray. I see that as being an improvement, not a problem.

DJ

 

[Ruz-El]

Is this ghosting similar to the Canadian "The Pianist"? If so, then I'll still buy these Chaplins. The Pianist looks great on my set up, and the only way you can see any doubling or ghosting is if you pause the film and frame advance it. Seeing as I don't watch movies that way, I don't think it will be a big deal. While I would of prefered a proper NTSC transfer, I'll still pick up this set if I find it priced right.

 

[John Hodson]

To be quite honest, I don't see ANY edge enhancement in EITHER of those screenshots.

Thank god - I thought my eyes were going! And I note - if those examples are exactly the same frame - that a flaw in the Image picture (right hand side, lower) has been repaired in the Warner frame.

To someone whose earliest memories of Chaplin were restricted to a very grainy, damaged, prints on an old and creaky black and white TV set, I'm sure the Warner set will look miraculous.

I'm not pressing the panic button just yet.

---
So many films, so little time...

 

[Jon Robertson]

Gary - as has been said, there isn't any edge enhancement and it isn't contrast boosting, simply a more accurate greyscale with deep blacks and pure whites. Indeed, if you look at the Image screen capture, it's covered in blocky video noise, whereas there is only the subtlest hint of film grain in the Warner capture. I have no idea why you're trashing these gorgeous discs.

 

[Peter Kline]

I agree Jon that the new discs look much better. The old ones are more contrasty when looking at the frames side by side. Nevertheless, I think I'll just buy Modern Times rather then the whole kit and kaboodle. Indeed there should have been NSTC masters made. Life goes on I guess.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Yup, when I viewed the photos this morning I thought my eyes were deceiving me because I didn't see any edge enhancement and thought the Warner photo looked much better than the Image one.



Crawdaddy

 

[Juan M. Rico]

I plan to maybe get one of these DVDs for my kids (4 and 6). They have seen an old VHS tape ("The Cure"), and they liked it. I guess they appreciated following the story with no words at all.

Which one do you guys recommend?

 

[Brian PB]

I think in all the hubbub about PAL/NTSC, EE, and PQ, my post on page 1 of this thread was maybe overlooked. Simple (?) question: Will the First National shorts be part of Warner's Chaplin Collection releases?

Thanks.

 

[Ted Todorov]

Guys, I think that two different things are being argued here:

I don't think there is any doubt that the MK2 DVDs are superior to the Image DVDs. What I'm saying is that you are better off getting the native PAL DVDs from MK2 rather than than Warners PAL to NTSC transfer, which inevitably causes artifacts (which aren't visible on stills but certainly are when you play it) not to mention the lowering of the resolution.

Brian: MK2 is putting out everything from A Dog's Life (1918) to A King in New York.

Ted

 

[Patrick McCart]

Just a reminder...

Next Tuesday (July 8th), Image will release a 7-disc set containing all of the Mutual and Essanay shorts Chaplin made. The set includes a documentary on Eric Campbell, too. This set will include the restorations made by David Shepard (it's a reissue, basically, of the single-disc editions)

If Kino or Film Preservation Associates made a "Best of" set of Chaplin's films at Keystone, that would pretty much complete the Chaplin legacy. (Note: a best of set would be the best idea...a lot of the Keystones don't exist in good shape and a lot just are not that good. A highlights set could include his most important/best of the Keystones)

 

[Damin J Toell]

Guys, I think that two different things are being argued here:

I don't think there is any doubt that the MK2 DVDs are superior to the Image DVDs. What I'm saying is that you are better off getting the native PAL DVDs from MK2 rather than than Warners PAL to NTSC transfer, which inevitably causes artifacts (which aren't visible on stills but certainly are when you play it) not to mention the lowering of the resolution.

This is only an option for those who not only have multiregion players capable of outputting a PAL signal, but also have a viewing device capable of displaying a native PAL signal. Even for those with multiregion players that do PAL->NTSC conversions, the Warner R1 discs will show less conversion artifacts and offer a more pleasing image. I would imagine that the percentage of HTFers that can actually properly follow your advice is pretty small. Although you claim that there are two things being argued about here, I haven't seen anyone actually disagree with you, so I'm not sure your point is actually being argued about at all. And while your point is well taken, I'd venture a guess that it's not an option open to most of us.

DJ

 

[Derek_McL]

My point also I think got lost in the shuffle : people in the UK like myself will be able to get the PAL DVDs but according to play.com we're only getting single disc editions without extras even though they are all coming out on September 22nd. It seems importing from France is the way to go unless play have got it wrong I think I'll just wait and see.

As for the First National shorts yes it was promised that they would be released but there is no sign of them for Sept 22nd but again I suppose that could just be an error even though many of these would you believe have never been officially released on VHS in this country. You might be luckier in region 1.

As for the transfer quality looking at the Modern Times screenshot there's probably a marginal improvement nothing more. Paulette Goddard's hair actually looks clearer and more detailed in the Image shot but The Gold Rush looks blurry in motion. The fact Shepard windowboxed the two Image discs I own City Lights and Modern Times probably accounts for some of the differences in the framing (why wasn't the letter-boxing retained I wonder ?).

So I think I'll give the boxset a miss for now and wait for the Region 2 editions. I love these films so much I might even forego the extras on some (honestly apart from the doc about the film they look pretty thin on Modern Times) to get the best possible copy. Still to get the silent version of The Gold Rush the R1 version with all its minor (I hope) problems might be the only way to go for most of us.

 

[Ted Todorov]

Although you claim that there are two things being argued about here, I haven't seen anyone actually disagree with you, so I'm not sure your point is actually being argued about at all. And while your point is well taken, I'd venture a guess that it's not an option open to most of us.

Rain, for one, was proclaiming that the Image disks are better.

So far as HTF members with equipment capable of viewing PAL natively, I think it is a greater number than you think:

Cat. 1) Every HTF member not living in North America is likely to have multi-standard or PAL only equipment.

Cat. 2) Most HTFers with front projectors have multi-standard equipment.

Cat. 3) (Which includes me) North American HTFers so interested in world cinema they went out of their way to get multi-standard TVs.

I'll grant you that cat.3 is pretty small, but cats. 1 & 2 are pretty big.

Lastly, from what I have been able to gather, player based PAL2NTSC conversions are often superior to what ends up on DVD. I am not in any way implying that this is the case here though.

Ted

 

[Ted Todorov]

My point also I think got lost in the shuffle : people in the UK like myself will be able to get the PAL DVDs but according to play.com we're only getting single disc editions without extras even though they are all coming out on September 22nd. It seems importing from France is the way to go unless play have got it wrong I think I'll just wait and see.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but the French MK2 double disc special editions of the same 4 films WB is releasing are available right now, not on Sept. 22 and from what I know on French vs UK prices, you won't save anything by buying the UK versions.

I'd say the French editions are without a doubt the way to go.

Ted

 

[DeeF]

The cropping is a non-issue for me. However, it does appear that the current disks were boosted for contrast, eliminating detail. Paulette Goddard's hair is a good example in the posted shots from Gary Tooze. Also, in the shots from the Gold Rush which were posted to show ghosting, my first reaction was to the contrast -- one can see details in Chaplin's coat, a rip on the right sleeve, in the Image shots, but this is eliminated with contrast in the Warner shots.

I prefer the grayscale of the Image disks. I own the box set of 5 -- were there more? Perhaps I could get these on Ebay.

 

[Mark_vdH]

I'd say the French editions are without a doubt the way to go.

Well, you could also opt for the Dutch September releases, if you like English titles on the front covers:



And rather strangely, the (Dutch) Warner press release states they will also release a 9-disc "Essential Gift Pack" of The Gold Rush, The Great Dictator, City Lights and Modern Times, with the 9th disc being devoted to an exclusive documentary by Richard Schickel. No release date is mentioned for this box however....

 

[Derek_McL]

The French discs may well be out now but the new Chaplins aren't coming to the UK till Sept 22nd. According to the British section of the Play website we are getting the following but only in single disc editions (presumably without the extras discs, probably the Dutch are getting the same) :

The Kid
The Gold Rush
The Circus
City Lights
Modern Times
The Great Dictator
Monsieur Verdoux
Limelight
A King In New York / A Woman of Paris

In the UK there will also be a four disc set with The Kid, The Gold Rush, Modern Times and The Great Dictator and a ten disc set containing all of the above and the Richard Schickel documentary apparently there so us Brits don't complain about the lack of extras on all the other discs !

So unless you can order from France or have French contacts if you want PAL plus all the extras lets hope (it might be a forlorn hope but here goes) this website has got it wrong and these are two not one disc editions.

 

[Peter Kline]

My final comment on this subject is, " ".