"The Cardinal" Where is the Overture and Columbia Logo?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Reed Grele, Feb 21, 2003.

  1. Reed Grele

    Reed Grele Screenwriter

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    The Laserdisc has both. The new DVD does not.

    Did anyone see this film when it was released in '63? I'm betting it originally had an overture. Especially since it has the entr'acte. I can see how they might have dropped the overture for time or other reasons, but not including the beautiful Panavision Columbia Lady??? That's a shame.

    Reed [​IMG]
     
  2. Patrick McCart

    Patrick McCart Lead Actor

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    It's likely that Warner cannot use the Columbia logo because Sony wanted royalties or something.

    Paramount, MGM, and Universal don't seem to mind Warner or Turner to use their logos.
     
  3. Roger Rollins

    Roger Rollins Supporting Actor

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    Don't try to second guess what lawyers at production companies or studios have set up vis a vis logos and ownership changes.....

    Deal with facts.

    When Paramount sold their pre-'49 sound feature library to MCA they allowed the Paramount logos to remain on the films.

    When Paramount sold their cartoon & short subject libraries, they did not allow their logos to remain.

    When Warner Brothers sold their pre-'50 library they allowed
    their logos to remain on those films.

    When Ted Turner bought MGM and couldn't afford to keep anything but the library, he sold the name and Lion logo back to Kirk Kerkorian, but retained the right to keep the lion logos on the existing pre-1986 MGM films.

    THE CARDINAL was an independent production released through Columbia, but the rights reverted to Otto Preminger's company. It's unclear whether they made the decision to remove to the Columbia logo from that film, or whether legally it could no longer be included.

    It's probably not accurate to just assume it was arbitrarily removed....
     
  4. ScottR

    ScottR Cinematographer

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    Same thing happened with The Shawshank Redemption...the Columbia opening logo and closing in-credit logo have been removed from the Warner dvd.
     
  5. Greg_M

    Greg_M Screenwriter

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    The Cardinal was a private production. Columbia distributed the film, they didn't make it. Columbia only used their logo when they ditributed the film.

    Don't know why there is isn't an overture. (The print used may not have included it.)
     
  6. Patrick McCart

    Patrick McCart Lead Actor

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  7. Jeff_HR

    Jeff_HR Producer

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    Does anyone 'really" know what happened to the overture?
     
  8. Peter Apruzzese

    Peter Apruzzese Producer

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    I thought that in another thread it was determined that the overture on the LaserDisc was not original to the film but was created from the soundtrack album. Can't find it on search, though.
     
  9. Roger Rollins

    Roger Rollins Supporting Actor

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    The replacement of the Paramount logos on their cartoons is in violation of the original sale agreement of those cartoons. At this point there's probably no one at Paramount who knows this, or frankly who cares. Especially since the Fleischer non-Popeye cartoons are now once again owned by Paramount by virtue of Viacom's ownership of the Spelling/Republic library.

    AAP logos were added to many WB features for early distribution, but WB logos never HAD to be legally removed.
     
  10. SteveP

    SteveP Second Unit

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    Not every roadshow film had a pre-credits overture, MY FAIR LADY and THE SOUND OF MUSIC being two examples
     
  11. Bill Huelbig

    Bill Huelbig Second Unit

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    I saw THE CARDINAL in a theater in 1963 and I don't remember there being an overture. The first thing you hear, before Jerome Moross's beautiful main title music starts up, are those big Roman bells tolling.

    --Bill
     
  12. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    For the record, My Fair Lady had an overture in roadshow engagements which is included on the DVD.

    This may have been one of the few situations in which an overture did not play over a dark screen, but rather, multiple dissolves of flowers before dissolving into the Main Title sequence.
     
  13. Thomas T

    Thomas T Producer

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    In addition to My Fair Lady, another overture that did not play with the curtains closed was the overture to West Side Story whose overture played to a drawn skyline of New York while the screen changed colors.
     
  14. SteveP

    SteveP Second Unit

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    The MY FAIR LADY overture is essentially part of the main title sequence.
     
  15. Mark Edward Heuck

    Mark Edward Heuck Screenwriter

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    Mr. Rollins' notes are very interesting. I never thought that logo replacement was any kind of legal matter; I just generally chalked it up to a sort of "revsionist history" on the part of the subsequent copyright holders when movies changed studios, when it was convenient. Early Warner tapes of the Lorimar pickup CRUISING still carried UA logos, as did their first DVD of ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOO'S NEST, and their original issues of WAITING FOR GUFFMAN carried the Sony Pictures Classics card up front.

    I for one am glad original logos are being returned to the Fleischer cartoons. Those ugly "U.M.& M. TV" cards interrupted the flow of carefully designed title sequences way too often. Unfortunately, they were ham-fistedly inserted into those negatives as well, so those are all we have of the classic Betty's, save digital manipulation.

    It would appear that this kind of change only impacts video. For example, MGM now owns ADVENTURES OF BUCKAROO BANZAI, but in the 35mm theatrical prints they have struck for repertory play, they still feature the original 20th Century Fox logo. Rialto Pictures recent reissue of BAND OF OUTSIDERS still features a Columbia logo in front of the film. And so on.

    We could have a whole separate thread about this.
     
  16. ScottR

    ScottR Cinematographer

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    Logos are fascinating pieces of art and history. I hope that more people will realize this as time goes by, and original logos will be retained whenever possible.
     
  17. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    While I can not speak directly to the question of The Cardinal and logus intactus, it may make facts a bit more understandable if one looks at the printing methodology of roadshow releases and the placement/use of an overture in general.

    A film print is made up of many pieces of film, both long and short. For ease, I'll use LoA as an example.

    The roadshow prints of Lawrence were manufactured at the lab in 32 distinct rolls.

    26 rolls made up the main body of the film in reels 1A through 13B.

    In addition there were separate units for Overture, Intermission title and playout, Entr'acte, End titles, Exit, Logo and Main Title sequence.

    When a roll is printed it has both head and tail protection, as well as Academy (countdown) leader attached.

    After printing of the image and processing, the Academy leader would be cut from reel 1A and placed aside. Leaders (both head and tail) would be removed from the logo at a specific marked frame.

    The same would be done for the Overture and Main Title sequence.

    The first reel is then ready for release cutting. At this point the Original Academy leader would be spliced onto the head end of the Overture. The head end of the Logo (specific to the distribution area) would be spliced on to the end of the Overture. The Main Title sequence (in the proper language) would be spliced on to the end of the
    Logo fade out. The first frame of fade in of Reel 1A would then be cut onto the end of the Main Title fade out.

    This entire unit would then be cut onto the head end of Reel 1B to create the first full roll of projectable film.

    However, the print is not yet ready for distribution.

    Once all of this is accomplished, with every cut and splice at the exact proper frame, the print would be striped with magnetic oxide, set away and allowed to cure.

    After a day or two, the assembled reel 1A/B could then be sounded, as the audio in the proper language would be recorded onto the mag stripes, after which the reel would be tested for quality and sync.

    In many cases for roadshow presentations, the Overture, logo and Main Title audio were not only contiguous, but continuous, which leads us back to The Cardinal.

    If when the Columbia logo was removed, it left no film against which to sync the end of the overture, that might have necessitated the removal of both.

    Of course the alternative would be to play the audio information for all of this over a black screen or as seems to be the unfortunate style for home video, a screen which tells the viewer what they are listening to.

    Just some thoughts.
     
  18. Patrick McCart

    Patrick McCart Lead Actor

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  19. Roger Rollins

    Roger Rollins Supporting Actor

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    Patrick,

    Sadly what you say about the Betty Boop cartoons is not correct. The damage was done to the original nitrate materials given to U.M.&M TV corp. In many cases they didn't even make safety conversions which is why a few Betty Boop cartoons may be lost forever. Prints were used to restore original titles. U.M. & M even took out Paramount's copyright notice.

    The news is better on the Popeye cartoons. The surviving nitrates are intact. AAP made safety dupe materials and did their butchering on those not the originals....
     
  20. Patrick McCart

    Patrick McCart Lead Actor

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