"The Alamo"s Status? (1 Viewer)

[sonomatom1]

Malcolm: Just for clarification: you mentioned that the LD is analog - does that mean that the film on LD isn't as "crisp" or "sharp" as a digital-to-digital transfer would be? Lord, it's fascinating to watch the evolution of home theatre over the last three decades. I hope I live long enough to see holgraphic home theatre (aka "Star Wars" and Princess Leia).

 

[FoxyMulder]

Malcolm: Just for clarification: you mentioned that the LD is analog - does that mean that the film on LD isn't as "crisp" or "sharp" as a digital-to-digital transfer would be? Lord, it's fascinating to watch the evolution of home theatre over the last three decades. I hope I live long enough to see holgraphic home theatre (aka "Star Wars" and Princess Leia).

It was 1990 that The Alamo was released on laserdisc i doubt the image quality will be as impressive as the best that even DVD has to offer, i don't think they were using an HD master to create that disc, not in 1990, it certainly wouldn't compare to a great looking blu ray made from a newly minted 2K or 4K film scan, nor will it compare to a DVD created from a new film scan, buy it and see what you think, it looks like options are limited and if you want the roadshow version then go for it.

The good thing about Laserdisc, even now, is the sound quality, many people will tell you that, they used original sound mixes back then, they didn't compress to hell the audio, you might have lossless audio now but sometimes they reduce hiss on older movies and destroy the higher frequencies in the process, that's what happened to The Sound Of Music and a few other notable releases, i'd take some of the hiss just to keep the higher frequencies intact, they also sometimes alter the dynamic range of the soundtrack and even alter the mix and so even though it's labelled lossless it's inferior to what it could be if they left things alone.

 

[sonomatom1]

Malcolm: I found your comments re LDs very interesting. I was always just a little disappointed in the image quality of most LDs - more 'grainy' than I expected, but, Lord, the sound quality - that's what convinced me (along with the restored editions, removal of those effing black bars, the extras, etc.) - to invest a really decent home theatre system, and upgrading my TV every twenty-six minutes!

My absolute favorite LD set was "Gettysburg" - incredible transfer. The deluxe box included a book, an (American) civil war map, and even an authentic musket ball from the period. Whoa! Number two on my list was the black box edition of Terminator 2. I kept both those editions for years. But in all fairness, the 'deluxe' Blu-ray editions of "Ben-Hur', 'Lawrence of Arabia', "Gettysburg (both films in a gift box) are pretty stunning. We're spoiled by the riches available. It's a great time to be a film collector.

 

[David_B_K]

I originally got into laserdisc for the sound quality. They had high quality stereo when VHS was still using a small linear track. I also had that deluxe laserdisc of Gettysburg. Unfortunately, it developed 'laser rot'. I junked the discs and kept the other goodies from the set. The big Lawrence blu-ray set reminds me of the Gettysburg LD packaging.

 

[Robert Harris]

A few comments. The old Alamo master (which was not the roadshow version), was 480i, and not of terribly high quality.

Those with fond memories of laserdisc quality, might be shocked to re-visit. Virtually continuous analogue artifacts, even within the low rez image.

RAH

 

[sonomatom1]

Sadly, I think we're all wasting our time on a film that has finally died a death it did not deserve. I, like the others on this Forum, appreciate RAH's commitment to "The Alamo", and the other films that he has given a new lease on life, and preserved for future generations of viewers. Thank you.

 

[ROclockCK]

A few comments. The old Alamo master (which was not the roadshow version), was 480i, and not of terribly high quality.

Those with fond memories of laserdisc quality, might be shocked to re-visit. Virtually continuous analogue artifacts, even within the low rez image.

RAH

In light of your own comments regarding the studio's disinterest in a proper restoration (if still even possible photo-chemically), I regard this continuing desire for a transfer of the legacy 480i master as akin to Kinescopes of vintage 50s TV shows. I mean, even a circa 1990 analogue SD master, however crudely rendered by current standards, would at least preserve a more complete version of the film John Wayne made.

Couldn't this otherwise lost curiosity be presented as a Disc 2 standard DVD Special Feature with an advisory that this is all that remains of Wayne's original extended roadshow cut? Would that be so very different from the extraordinary best recovery effort that you and Criterion put into It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World?

Or is there just not enough cross-over commercial interest in the title itself?

 

[sonomatom1]

I know time and technology marches on, but I just have to laugh at our comments about how compromised image quality of laserdiscs was - I know its nearly 25 years now, but I remember what a revelation the laserdisc was, and how happy we all were to finally be able to discard our VHS tapes - while the doomsayers said that a DVD could never match the quality of a laserdisc (but stand-by for the 'D-VHS', I think it was called... kinda like Sony's minidisc). It is really quite humbling. So, what is next so I can start saving my money (uh huh, not streaming)?

 

[Reed Grele]

I'll have to dust off my old (but still looking like new) Alamo laserdisc box set and make sure that it still plays. The last time I watched it was around 2004 on a 57" Sony 16x9 RPTV (CRT). I've tried to watch some of my LD's on plasma and front projection with lousy results. CRT's still look the best.

 

[Brian McP]

When it comes to heartbreaking stories about lost films, this is one of the classics. But I fear this might be one of thousands of similar cases through the years.

Well, we can at least be thankful that the laserdisc version has survived (I hope that one isn't rotting away as we speak), and yes, have it included as a special feature (and have it identified as such, in case people go berserk as they did with the 'Mad World' reconstruction) with any Criterion release of the movie. The fact that it isn't anamorphic is the killer -- at least the sound should be ok, one way or the other.

I just checked eBay and no sign of The Alamo boxset anywhere but the you can get the theatrical release for $10. I'm going to transfer mine to dvd-r as soon as I can....just in case my laserdisc player suddenly expires from all that action.

 

[Robert Harris]

There are major differences between the Mad World situation and Alamo.Mad World had a basically unfaded original negative of the short version, with the exception of a handful of dupes. It did not need restoration, merely a digital cleanup.There is no viable surviving element for even the short version of Alamo that can properly represent the film in large format. It can no longer be saved via analogue means. Even with extremely tenuous digital work, while a representative large format version could presently still be created, it cannot and will never be even near pristine.The elements are one stage above industrial waste, and unless someone at MGM or Fox steps up to the plate very quickly, the current regime will be able to take pride in not only the next Bond film, but also the loss of The Alamo on their watch.Not certain precisely where that works its way into someone's CV.RAH

 

[ROclockCK]

Ouch.

I never saw the MGM DVD(s) of the short version...were they really that bad?

It's even sadder to hear that this is no longer a case of a film being preserved in its long form...but surviving in any form.

Thanks again for your insight RAH...no one has been closer to the restoration challenges of this particular title.

So back up those LDs and DVDs folks!

 

[sonomatom1]

Mr. Harris: thank you for your last post, but I found it a little confusing. You wrote "The elements are one stage above industrial waste, and unless someone at MGM or Fox steps up to the plate very quickly...". What could MGM or Fox do at this time? Are you implying that they still hold viable elements of the film that you could work with, or are you just commenting on the general state of MGM/Fox titles under their current regimes?

Thanks.

 

[Reed Grele]

I find it hard to understand how it could have come to this. Surely someone, somewhere on this huge planet must have a viable source that, at the very least, could be used as a source for a BD restoration.

Not even the Wayne estate has a salvageable print??

 

[JoeDoakes]

Mr. Harris: thank you for your last post, but I found it a little confusing. You wrote "The elements are one stage above industrial waste, and unless someone at MGM or Fox steps up to the plate very quickly...". What could MGM or Fox do at this time? Are you implying that they still hold viable elements of the film that you could work with, or are you just commenting on the general state of MGM/Fox titles under their current regimes?

Thanks.

MGM holds all the elements of the film. I think that it's clear that he's saying: (1) all of the elements of the film are in very bad shape with the Roadshow version being the worst; (2) a great amount of digital work is needed to bring even the short general release version of the film back to decent shape; (3) the elements continue to deteriorate.

 

[sonomatom1]

JoeDoakes: thanks for the clarification, but it sounds like MGM/Fox "stepping up to the plate", is like a batter waiting to hit when the games is already over and most of the fans have gone home.

 

[RolandL]

I think the way the story goes, a film print from Canada was being shown in the late 80's and no one knew if it was the complete roadshow. It was and that print was used for the laser disc.

When did the laser disc come out? Was it 1990? Then, in 2004 the DVD came out but the shorter version.

 

[sonomatom1]

You have the facts correct, and two versions on LD came out in 1993 - the shorter (approx 161 mins (although the box of the box indicates a 'Running Time of approximately two hours and 52 minutes') and "Roadshow" version ("Restored Origninal Director's Cut") (approx 202 min). The butchered DVD (approx 167 mins) came in out in 2000. As Robert Harris indicated on this forum, the film elements used for the both LD releases have deteroriated beyond the possiblity of repair.

 

[RolandL]

Ouch.

I never saw the MGM DVD(s) of the short version...were they really that bad?

It's even sadder to hear that this is no longer a case of a film being preserved in its long form...but surviving in any form.

Thanks again for your insight RAH...no one has been closer to the restoration challenges of this particular title.

So back up those LDs and DVDs folks!

Screen shots need to be stretched:

 

[davidmatychuk]

You have the facts correct, and two versions on LD came out in 1993 - the shorter (approx 161 mins (although the box of the box indicates a 'Running Time of approximately two hours and 52 minutes') and "Roadshow" version ("Restored Origninal Director's Cut") (approx 192/202 min - I'm not clear; I don't have the LD any longer. ). The butchered DVD (approx 167 mins) came in out in 2000. As Robert Harris indicated on this forum, the film elements used for the both LD releases have deteroriated beyond the possiblity of repair.

The copyright on the Laserdisc box set says 1992, and the time is listed as "Approx. Feature Running Time: 3 hrs. 22 mins".Here's a scan of the back page of the 12"X12" brouchure: