TJPC
Senior HTF Member
The Taylor Cleopatra was originally intended to be two movies, one for Caesar and one for Anthony.
You mean there was a longer version of the 251 minute "Cleopatra"? How much longer?
There was a search for Cleopatra elements a number of years ago, funded by Fox. It came up empty. About that same time my assistant, Joanne, and I, created an excel spread sheet of what had actually been shot, and what is missing. The source was Mr. Mankiewicz’ daily continuity and camera reports.
if there’s interest here, I see no reason not to share the file.
Two very different projects.
Cleopatra was never cut as a two part project beyond a 35mm work picture and track for internal screening. There never was a final product. That film is also in superb physical condition.
Alamo was cut and conformed as a longer roadshow, and prints were released to theaters. It was shortened because of a lack of public transportation out of the large cities in which it played. The original negatives were not meant to be cut. Finally, the physical elements are in horrific condition.
Somebody called "The Alamo" tedious, well I can say the same thing about "Cleopatra". I'm not saying it's a bad movie, it's pretty good, but I can't watch it in one sitting like I can "LOA". It's in the same boat as "GWTW" with me.When I hear about a 251-minute (four hours and 11 minutes!) film, I think of the George Roy Hill statement quoted in William Goldman's "Adventures in the Screen Trade": "If you can't tell your story in two hours you better be David Lean." (Maybe he learned that from doing Hawaii, which clocks in at a too-long 171 minutes — 189 with overture, entr'acte and exit music.)
Apologies, I don't want to derail this thread, but Mr. Harris, can you please clarify... do you mean the 35mm black and white work print of Cleopatra is in pristine condition, or the completed 70mm four-hour film?
I would be very interested to see that Excel spreadsheet if you wouldn't mind sharing it. I was disappointed that Fox didn't include the scraps that have turned up on the 50th anniversary Blu-ray, such as Cleopatra in her camp, which Nick mentioned above that can be glimpsed in the excellent Film That Changed Hollywood documentary, as well costume tests and some Pinewood footage. Needless to say, to see the black and white work print would be a dream come true.
How comparable are the challenges of restoring The Alamo to that of Raintree County? I've never seen The Alamo, but I've followed this thread closely because it seems to me that the challenges are similar, although I'm sure there's plenty of nuance I'm not understanding.
Apologies, I don't want to derail this thread, but Mr. Harris, can you please clarify... do you mean the 35mm black and white work print of Cleopatra is in pristine condition, or the completed 70mm four-hour film?
I would be very interested to see that Excel spreadsheet if you wouldn't mind sharing it. I was disappointed that Fox didn't include the scraps that have turned up on the 50th anniversary Blu-ray, such as Cleopatra in her camp, which Nick mentioned above that can be glimpsed in the excellent Film That Changed Hollywood documentary, as well costume tests and some Pinewood footage. Needless to say, to see the black and white work print would be a dream come true.
How comparable are the challenges of restoring The Alamo to that of Raintree County? I've never seen The Alamo, but I've followed this thread closely because it seems to me that the challenges are similar, although I'm sure there's plenty of nuance I'm not understanding.
afaik, the work print was screened in Italy, and most likely continued as a work print as it was recut. I’ll see if I can find my notes. Should be on RAID.
I have seen The Alamo & Cleopatra and had a great time and there are certain long films that i might watch over two nights like War & Peace, Fanny & Alexander or Visconti's "Ludwig" clocking in at almost 4 hours.Somebody called "The Alamo" tedious, well I can say the same thing about "Cleopatra". I'm not saying it's a bad movie, it's pretty good, but I can't watch it in one sitting like I can "LOA". It's in the same boat as "GWTW" with me.
I guess it was to be expected that they cut it down to conform with what would be the release roadshow version.
So that was a work print that was to be used as the basis for a two movie release I take it - is it known how much longer each part was compared to what finally made it into the roadshow print?
And was it really only black and white? I find it hard to believe that a work print that was shown to studio executives would not be in color and it would rob Cleopatra of a considerable part of its spectacle.
Raintree is more extensions of scenes. Bit and pieces, shortening of shots. I've not seen anything substantive that was removed, harming the film.
-Nell and Garwood after graduation - 40 seconds
-Swamp 58 seconds
-Professor and John in cornfield 71 seconds
-John and Father illegitimacy discussion 1 minute, 53 seconds
-John, Bobby Drake and slave 2 minutes, 16 seconds
-John , Niles unfulfilled ambition 1 minute, 46 seconds [key scene]
-John going to homestead and Susanna in labor 55 seconds [the lead in uses an alternate take as well]
-John's Search in Indianapolis, visit to Garwood, photographer and Decision to enlist 4 minutes, 34 seconds
-Susanna's Decision and Search for the doll 35 seconds
RAINTREE COUNTY ROADSHOW CUTS: 14 minutes, 48 seconds
Raintree is more extensions of scenes. Bit and pieces, shortening of shots. I've not seen anything substantive that was removed, harming the film.
And was it really only black and white? I find it hard to believe that a work print that was shown to studio executives would not be in color and it would rob Cleopatra of a considerable part of its spectacle.
The “politics” of the film concern liberty and freedom. The downside, has been acknowledged as a great deal of “speechifying.”
The roadshow cur does not exist on any home video medium, although a fake roadshow was released.
The roadshow can no longer be restored in any quality fashion, only the re-cut version, and that not at 100%.
It seems that MGM is either fearful of appearing negligent in caring for their library, or too impecunious to do anything about it.
They have placed false publicity, had executives lie about the state of the film to the press, and in general, shown a lack of interest in the cinema, contempt for those with knowledge, and an overriding culture of what might be called “poor sportsmanship.”
The Alamo is still a wonderful but flawed film with marvelous cinematography which would look fantastic restored and reissued!
I'm seeing over 17 minutes of cut and trims, in 13 sections, the longest individual being 390 feet.
As someone who is researching the making of Cleopatra in order to write a book about it, I'm glad you shared this! I've gotten copies of the camera reports from Walter Wanger's papers at the Wisconsin Historical Society, but really haven't had the time to go through all 500+ pages of it as yet.There was a search for Cleopatra elements a number of years ago, funded by Fox. It came up empty. About that same time my assistant, Joanne, and I, created an excel spread sheet of what had actually been shot, and what is missing. The source was Mr. Mankiewicz’ daily continuity and camera reports.
if there’s interest here, I see no reason not to share the file.
Two very different projects.
Cleopatra was never cut as a two part project beyond a 35mm work picture and track for internal screening. There never was a final product. That film is also in superb physical condition.
Alamo was cut and conformed as a longer roadshow, and prints were released to theaters. It was shortened because of a lack of public transportation out of the large cities in which it played. The original negatives were not meant to be cut. Finally, the physical elements are in horrific condition.
You mean there was a longer version of the 251 minute "Cleopatra"? How much longer?