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"The Alamo"s Status? (1 Viewer)

Rick Thompson

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You mean there was a longer version of the 251 minute "Cleopatra"? How much longer?

When I hear about a 251-minute (four hours and 11 minutes!) film, I think of the George Roy Hill statement quoted in William Goldman's "Adventures in the Screen Trade": "If you can't tell your story in two hours you better be David Lean." (Maybe he learned that from doing Hawaii, which clocks in at a too-long 171 minutes — 189 with overture, entr'acte and exit music.)
 

Andrew Budgell

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There was a search for Cleopatra elements a number of years ago, funded by Fox. It came up empty. About that same time my assistant, Joanne, and I, created an excel spread sheet of what had actually been shot, and what is missing. The source was Mr. Mankiewicz’ daily continuity and camera reports.

if there’s interest here, I see no reason not to share the file.

Two very different projects.

Cleopatra was never cut as a two part project beyond a 35mm work picture and track for internal screening. There never was a final product. That film is also in superb physical condition.

Alamo was cut and conformed as a longer roadshow, and prints were released to theaters. It was shortened because of a lack of public transportation out of the large cities in which it played. The original negatives were not meant to be cut. Finally, the physical elements are in horrific condition.

Apologies, I don't want to derail this thread, but Mr. Harris, can you please clarify... do you mean the 35mm black and white work print of Cleopatra is in pristine condition, or the completed 70mm four-hour film?

I would be very interested to see that Excel spreadsheet if you wouldn't mind sharing it. I was disappointed that Fox didn't include the scraps that have turned up on the 50th anniversary Blu-ray, such as Cleopatra in her camp, which Nick mentioned above that can be glimpsed in the excellent Film That Changed Hollywood documentary, as well costume tests and some Pinewood footage. Needless to say, to see the black and white work print would be a dream come true.

How comparable are the challenges of restoring The Alamo to that of Raintree County? I've never seen The Alamo, but I've followed this thread closely because it seems to me that the challenges are similar, although I'm sure there's plenty of nuance I'm not understanding.
 

Robert Crawford

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When I hear about a 251-minute (four hours and 11 minutes!) film, I think of the George Roy Hill statement quoted in William Goldman's "Adventures in the Screen Trade": "If you can't tell your story in two hours you better be David Lean." (Maybe he learned that from doing Hawaii, which clocks in at a too-long 171 minutes — 189 with overture, entr'acte and exit music.)
Somebody called "The Alamo" tedious, well I can say the same thing about "Cleopatra". I'm not saying it's a bad movie, it's pretty good, but I can't watch it in one sitting like I can "LOA". It's in the same boat as "GWTW" with me.
 

Robert Harris

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Cleopatra work spreadsheet...

Numbers and dates interrelate with final draft screenplay, daily continuity sheets, and camera reports.

Image 5-20-20 at 9.25 AM.jpg



Image 5-20-20 at 9.26 AM.jpg

Image 5-20-20 at 9.28 AM.jpg
 

Robert Harris

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Apologies, I don't want to derail this thread, but Mr. Harris, can you please clarify... do you mean the 35mm black and white work print of Cleopatra is in pristine condition, or the completed 70mm four-hour film?

I would be very interested to see that Excel spreadsheet if you wouldn't mind sharing it. I was disappointed that Fox didn't include the scraps that have turned up on the 50th anniversary Blu-ray, such as Cleopatra in her camp, which Nick mentioned above that can be glimpsed in the excellent Film That Changed Hollywood documentary, as well costume tests and some Pinewood footage. Needless to say, to see the black and white work print would be a dream come true.

How comparable are the challenges of restoring The Alamo to that of Raintree County? I've never seen The Alamo, but I've followed this thread closely because it seems to me that the challenges are similar, although I'm sure there's plenty of nuance I'm not understanding.

The final version, as released.
 

Robert Harris

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Apologies, I don't want to derail this thread, but Mr. Harris, can you please clarify... do you mean the 35mm black and white work print of Cleopatra is in pristine condition, or the completed 70mm four-hour film?

I would be very interested to see that Excel spreadsheet if you wouldn't mind sharing it. I was disappointed that Fox didn't include the scraps that have turned up on the 50th anniversary Blu-ray, such as Cleopatra in her camp, which Nick mentioned above that can be glimpsed in the excellent Film That Changed Hollywood documentary, as well costume tests and some Pinewood footage. Needless to say, to see the black and white work print would be a dream come true.

How comparable are the challenges of restoring The Alamo to that of Raintree County? I've never seen The Alamo, but I've followed this thread closely because it seems to me that the challenges are similar, although I'm sure there's plenty of nuance I'm not understanding.

Raintree is more extensions of scenes. Bit and pieces, shortening of shots. I've not seen anything substantive that was removed, harming the film.
 

OliverK

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afaik, the work print was screened in Italy, and most likely continued as a work print as it was recut. I’ll see if I can find my notes. Should be on RAID.

I guess it was to be expected that they cut it down to conform with what would be the release roadshow version.

So that was a work print that was to be used as the basis for a two movie release I take it - is it known how much longer each part was compared to what finally made it into the roadshow print?

And was it really only black and white? I find it hard to believe that a work print that was shown to studio executives would not be in color and it would rob Cleopatra of a considerable part of its spectacle.
 

Angelo Colombus

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Somebody called "The Alamo" tedious, well I can say the same thing about "Cleopatra". I'm not saying it's a bad movie, it's pretty good, but I can't watch it in one sitting like I can "LOA". It's in the same boat as "GWTW" with me.
I have seen The Alamo & Cleopatra and had a great time and there are certain long films that i might watch over two nights like War & Peace, Fanny & Alexander or Visconti's "Ludwig" clocking in at almost 4 hours.
 

Robert Harris

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I guess it was to be expected that they cut it down to conform with what would be the release roadshow version.

So that was a work print that was to be used as the basis for a two movie release I take it - is it known how much longer each part was compared to what finally made it into the roadshow print?

And was it really only black and white? I find it hard to believe that a work print that was shown to studio executives would not be in color and it would rob Cleopatra of a considerable part of its spectacle.

Most like was color scope, which was the tech at the time. First few months of Lawrence work pix, it was letterboxed within the 35mm frame.
 

RolandL

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Raintree is more extensions of scenes. Bit and pieces, shortening of shots. I've not seen anything substantive that was removed, harming the film.

RAINTREE COUNTY ROADSHOW CUTS: 14 minutes, 48 seconds

-Nell and Garwood after graduation - 40 seconds
-Swamp 58 seconds
-Professor and John in cornfield 71 seconds
-John and Father illegitimacy discussion 1 minute, 53 seconds
-John, Bobby Drake and slave 2 minutes, 16 seconds
-John , Niles unfulfilled ambition 1 minute, 46 seconds [key scene]
-John going to homestead and Susanna in labor 55 seconds [the lead in uses an alternate take as well]
-John's Search in Indianapolis, visit to Garwood, photographer and Decision to enlist 4 minutes, 34 seconds
-Susanna's Decision and Search for the doll 35 seconds


 
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Andrew Budgell

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Raintree is more extensions of scenes. Bit and pieces, shortening of shots. I've not seen anything substantive that was removed, harming the film.

Thank you for your responses, Mr. Harris, and for posting the Cleopatra spreadsheets. Very interesting, and much appreciated! A friend of mine combined the excised text from the script with photographs to "recreate" Mankiewicz' vision. If anyone is interested, it can be found here (click The Restored Cleopatra): http://elizabethtaylorthelegend.com/Elizabeth Taylor - Cleopatra Contents.html

I agree, I don't think the cuts made to Raintree detract from the film. If Warners were able to find a way to release the theatrical cut of the film in 35mm, with the deleted portions in SD as bonus material, I would be a happy camper.

And was it really only black and white? I find it hard to believe that a work print that was shown to studio executives would not be in color and it would rob Cleopatra of a considerable part of its spectacle.

Hi Oliver, the featurette on the Cleopatra Blu-ray entitled "Cleopatra's Missing Footage" refers to the work print being in black and white, and recreates what it would have looked like.
 

Mike Boone

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The “politics” of the film concern liberty and freedom. The downside, has been acknowledged as a great deal of “speechifying.”

The roadshow cur does not exist on any home video medium, although a fake roadshow was released.

The roadshow can no longer be restored in any quality fashion, only the re-cut version, and that not at 100%.

It seems that MGM is either fearful of appearing negligent in caring for their library, or too impecunious to do anything about it.

They have placed false publicity, had executives lie about the state of the film to the press, and in general, shown a lack of interest in the cinema, contempt for those with knowledge, and an overriding culture of what might be called “poor sportsmanship.”



Yes RAH, Mr Wayne specifically wanted his film to celebrate American patriotism, as its story dealt with a battle waged by American settlers in Texas, to be free of Mexico's control of its territory. But the great irony is that history tells us that what Mexico particularly objected to, was American settlers in Mexico's territory of Texas, wanting to be able to have slaves, a practice Mexico opposed. So it does seem somewhat ironic that the men who bravely fought & died, defending the Alamo, did so, partly for the goal of winning the freedom, and the right, to be able to own other people.

So RAH, it's interesting how history actually places your words: "The "politics" of the film concern liberty and freedom", in a considerably different light than what John Wayne must have wanted audiences to think about, when seeing his film.

BTW, nevertheless, I'm still a big John Wayne fan! And anyone who has really come to care about preserving America's movie heritage, as I do, should consider it to be a step in the right direction, for Mr Wayne's film to be carefully restored.
 

Robert Harris

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The Alamo is still a wonderful but flawed film with marvelous cinematography which would look fantastic restored and reissued!

While testing several years ago, it became apparent that it's one of the most highly resolved 70mm productions. Incredibly sharp and detailed. Something that unfortunately did not carry over from the protection masters.
 

RolandL

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I'm seeing over 17 minutes of cut and trims, in 13 sections, the longest individual being 390 feet.

This is based on the roadshow showings of Raintree on TCM and released on VHS tape that were about 188 minutes. The shorter version shown previously on TCM and on VHS tape were 173 minutes. The current version that is shown on TCM is 166 minutes.
 
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Paul Bosquet

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Watched The Alamo on Amazon Prime today and enjoyed it. The quality was pretty good as far as I could tell. Would love to see a restored roadshow version. Cleopatra is on Prime as well so that might be next on my list to view.
 

Allansfirebird

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There was a search for Cleopatra elements a number of years ago, funded by Fox. It came up empty. About that same time my assistant, Joanne, and I, created an excel spread sheet of what had actually been shot, and what is missing. The source was Mr. Mankiewicz’ daily continuity and camera reports.

if there’s interest here, I see no reason not to share the file.

Two very different projects.

Cleopatra was never cut as a two part project beyond a 35mm work picture and track for internal screening. There never was a final product. That film is also in superb physical condition.

Alamo was cut and conformed as a longer roadshow, and prints were released to theaters. It was shortened because of a lack of public transportation out of the large cities in which it played. The original negatives were not meant to be cut. Finally, the physical elements are in horrific condition.
As someone who is researching the making of Cleopatra in order to write a book about it, I'm glad you shared this! I've gotten copies of the camera reports from Walter Wanger's papers at the Wisconsin Historical Society, but really haven't had the time to go through all 500+ pages of it as yet.

You mean there was a longer version of the 251 minute "Cleopatra"? How much longer?

An August, 1962 memo from Walter Wanger noted the runtimes for the two halves as:

Caesar and Cleopatra: 2 hours, 30 minutes
Antony and Cleopatra: 2 hours, 50 minutes

And that first half was already shorn of the early scenes in Ptolemy's tent and Cleopatra's encampment. Both of those sequences had been filmed fairly early (Cleo's encampment was the first scene filmed). By January-62, Joe Mankiewicz had cut these scenes, as well as a slew of others in the first half of the script to bring down the length by at least 15 pages. There's several notes made by JLM that he wanted to rewrite and retake the first scene in Cleopatra's encampment. His concept of the character's relationship to Isis had changed, they were in a rush to "get anything on the screen, whether they were ready or not," and the original actor to portray Ramos was replaced because his English was terrible. He lobbied for this retake as late as June-62, but I've found no notes or script pages indicating this revised version was ever scripted. It certainly was never shot.
 
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