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The AFI 100 Years List for 2008... (1 Viewer)

Larry Sutliff

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Actually, FRANKENSTEIN and BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN received rave reviews from Variety, the Hollywood Reporter, the NY Times, and just about every major media outlet on their original release. DRACULA received its share of favorable notices as well. The only film mentioned here that was reviled on release(by critics and the public alike) was ISLAND, which was considered in poor taste.
 

george kaplan

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Critical opinion about older films, while not perfect, is at least somewhat informative. Critical opinion about films when they come out, is basically a crapshoot. There's a book called The New York Times Guide to The Best 1,000 Movies Ever Made, consisting of the original reviews of those movies. I've only scanned the book in the store, but it's filled with many negative reviews.
 

ted:r

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My major hope for these lists is that the studios will look at them and say, hey "Johnny Gutar" or "The Big Parade" or "The Tall T" or "The Gunfighter", etc, is on the list and we haven't issued it out on DVD. Maybe it would be like a good idea if we did....
 

Eric Peterson

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Having a Top 10 Western films without Leone is kind of like having a Top 10 Color Noir countdown. Just silly!

This 10 is pretty much in the bag right now.

The Searchers
High Noon
Rio Bravo
Red River
Stagecoach
Unforgiven
Butch Cassidy
The Wild Bunch
Shane
Ox-Bow Incident

I can all but guarantee 9 of these 10 which leaves one Wildcard that could go to "Dances with Wolves" or "The Westerner"

Now a top 20 westerns countdown would be really interesting!!
 

Michael Elliott

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I'll have to search out those reviews but from what I've read, I'd say the critics were luke warm at best. No one was calling these among the years best and a lot of them were bitching about the violence, ghoulish stories and so on. Even the Lon Chaney silent pictures took the same beatings. I certainly didn't mean to imply that all the reviews were negative but there was a reason Karloff wasn't at least nominated for an Oscar in BRIDE. These films have always been looked down on and they do to this day.

I think it speaks for itself that many, many, many so called "great movies" of the day have been forgotten yet these Universal titles are just as popular as ever. I think someone could argue that these Universal films are among the most popular of any classic films of their era.
 

Larry Sutliff

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FRANKENSTEIN placed #7 on the NY Times 10 Best List in 1931, and played the Venice Film Festival.

Quotes from Hollywood Reporters review of BRIDE:


I certainly don't disagree with you there.
*All quotes are from Gregory Mank's exemplary work IT'S ALIVE! THE CLASSIC CINEMA SAGA OF FRANKENSTEIN.
 

Michael Elliott

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Larry we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I believe nine (or perhaps ten) different films were nominated for Best Picture in 1935. Not BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN. Today it's called one of the greatest of the decade yet in 1935 it wasn't in the Top 10.
 

Joe Karlosi

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Michael, I've just gone back to read the discussion involving Larry and yourself, and he's pretty much brought out some great factual points. And just because BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN wasn't nominated for Best Picture doesn't mean it wasn't well received...
 

Michael Elliott

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You made different quotes last year when you were reading me all those negative reviews in Universal Horros (the book). You even used these reviews at another board to say critics weren't fair to horror films so could you please post some of those reviews you and I talked about.

There were positive reviews of PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE too but I don't think that takes away that the overwelming majority were negative.
 

Adam_S

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haha, I just realized I was tired last night and posted The Mission thoughts in the wrong thread. :P
 

Joe Karlosi

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I don't know what you're talking about with regard to BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN, as this is the only film I'm reacting to here. Look, I'm not going to try and claim that "every" review was a glowing one for BRIDE or any of the '30s horror movies (far from it!)... but Larry has already quoted some good crtiiques from reputable sources of the day.

Here are some BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN acclaims I've gotten out of Bryan Senn's excellent book GOLDEN HORRORS (which I still think you should own):


The Hollywood Reporter (April 6, 1935):
after viewing a special preview screening, called the film "one of the finest productions that has come off the Universal lot for many a day. Mounted extravagantly, gorgeously photographed, excellently cast..."

The New York Times (May 11 1935):
"...Mr. Karloff is so splendid in the role that all one can say is 'he is the monster'. James Whale has done another excellent job; the settings, photography, and the makeup contribute their important elements to a first-rate horror film. The monster should become an institution, like Charlie Chan".

Variety (May 15, 1935):
"And now Frankenstein's monster has a bride and Universal has another money-maker. While there may be a few things about this film to quibble about, the net total is the same - an imaginative and outstanding film sure to rake in the shekels... And of course, all the credit to James Whale for wielding the component parts into a homogeneous whole".


These are factual reviews from 1935, Michael.
 

Michael Elliott

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Thank you Joe. It's not often but I've actually changed my entire outlook on the debate between critics and horror films. I now think they treat them very fairly. They enjoy the good ones and hate the bad ones. Whenever a future debate comes up about critics not liking horror then I'm afraid I'll have to switch sides and defend the critics.

We've debated with various people over the year but if you really think about it, they were right. We've said people weren't real horror fans yet we were wrong here. You know it's not often that I do a complete turn around but I think it comes down to horror fans enjoy a lot of s&*t and then complain when others don't like it. I've always stood by critics except for horror films but that has now changed. I think it's good that AFI didn't make a list for horror films.

Betcha thought I'd never change my mind on that. :)
 

Michael Elliott

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Sure you do. Whenever certain people review horror films and don't give them good reviews we jump at them saying they just aren't horror fans or that they just don't enjoy the genre. They, in return, tell us the horror films they do like and we accuse them of just liking the mainstream horror films or say they aren't horror films that they like. For years we've talked about how critics are against horror movies but I've changed my tune on this.
 

Joe Karlosi

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Yes, I still certainly think critics are generally biased against horror films.

But you were generalizing that they *all* were trashed in the 1930s. Not all of them were. And most specifically you were saying how BRIDE was not considered so good... but I've provided some reviews to illustrate this wasn't really the case.
 

Adam_S

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I think I know where the courtroom drama thing comes from. USC has a lot of ties to the AFI, Drew Casper is one of their leading film professors and is also involved high up at AFI. In Drew's new textbook, postwar Hollywood, a very large section of it is detailed examination of the period genre by genre and by subgenres within some genres. one of those subgenres is "Courtroom Drama" Drew is exactly the type who would lobby quite strenuously for such a category to be recognized.

I took a few hours to try to come up with my own top tens out of the nominated film and I came to this conclusion:

This is going to be the most controversial list AFI has done by a comfortable mile. There is going to be nothing but outrage, derision and bile spewed at them for years and years after these 10 of 10 come out. There won't be a single positive thing said about the lists by 99.9999% of filmbuffs who post on the internet. Absolutely no one will be happy with the lists at all.

And the lists will probably be pretty damn incredible and superb exemplers of their respective genres.

And although the outcry will be loud and widespread abroad the vast reaches of internet boards the outcry would be 100 times worse if they'd included horror as a genre. And this is simply because of the number and increased scale of devotion of horror fans in comparison to those devotees of the other genres. There are a lot of people that love science fiction and fantasy, but there are comparatively few people who are so devoted to those genres that it makes up the vast majority of the film they watch and rewatch, simply because there really isn't tens of thousands of fantasy and scifi films.

It was probably a very politick decision by AFI, if they don't include horror, they cut the amount of flak they have to take when the eventual lists come out by at least half, plus they get the added bonus of highlighting a rather overlooked but extremely interesting genre that is particularly representative of the american idiom of film and so fits in quite specifically with the AFI.
 

Adam_S

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my ten of ten, two categories I essentially had a tie for tenth place :p It is ridiculously hard to pare down these lists to just ten. I had at least fifteen-twenty finalists in all ten genres and it was painful paring away all those films one by one. :frowning:



1 Beauty and the Beast 1991 Animation 2 Bambi 1942 Animation 3 Incredibles, The 2004 Animation 4 Lady and the Tramp, The 1955 Animation 5 Iron Giant, The 1999 Animation 6 Fantasia 1940 Animation 7 Monsters Inc. 2001 Animation 8 Shrek 2001 Animation 9 South Park: Bigger Longer and Uncut 1999 Animation 10 Sword in the Stone, The 1963 Animation



1 To Kill a Mockingbird 1962 Courtroom Drama 2 Paths of Glory 1957 Courtroom Drama 3 Man For All Seasons, A 1966 Courtroom Drama 4 12 Angry Men 1957 Courtroom Drama 5 Inherit the Wind 1960 Courtroom Drama 6 Anatomy of a Murder 1959 Courtroom Drama 7 Judgement at Nuremberg 1961 Courtroom Drama 8 Witness for the Prosecution 1957 Courtroom Drama 9 Adam's Rib 1949 Courtroom Drama 10 Young Mr. Lincoln 1939 Courtroom Drama



1 Lawrence of Arabia 1962 Epic 2 Braveheart 1995 Epic 3 Bridge on the River Kwai, The 1957 Epic 4 Dances With Wolves 1990 Epic 5 Forrest Gump 1994 Epic 6 Apocalypse Now 1979 Epic 7 Godfather Part II, The 1974 Epic 8 Passion of the Christ, The 2004 Epic 9 Ben-Hur 1959 Epic 10 Ten Commandments, The 1956 Epic



1 Lord of the Rings, The: The Fellowship of the Ring 2001 Fantasy 2 Princess Bride, The 1987 Fantasy 3 It's a Wonderful Life 1946 Fantasy 4 Harvey 1950 Fantasy 5 Field of Dreams 1989 Fantasy 6 Who Framed Roger Rabbit 1988 Fantasy 7 Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory 1971 Fantasy 8 Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl 2003 Fantasy 9 Chronicles of Narnia, The: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe 2005 Fantasy 10 King Kong 1933 Fantasy



1 Godfather, The 1972 Gangster 2 Godfather Part II, The 1974 Gangster 3 Miller's Crossing 1990 Gangster 4 History of Violence, A 2005 Gangster 5 Departed, The 2006 Gangster 6 Out of Sight 1998 Gangster 7 Usual Suspects, The 1995 Gangster 8 Goodfellas 1990 Gangster 9 Killers, The 1946 Gangster 10 Scarface: The Shame of a Nation 1932 Gangster



1 Thin Man, The 1934 Mystery 2 Rear Window 1954 Mystery 3 Usual Suspects, The 1995 Mystery 4 Fugitive, The 1993 Mystery 5 L.A. Confidential 1997 Mystery 6 Laura 1944 Mystery 7 Maltese Falcon, The 1972 Mystery 8 Big Lebowski, The 1998 Mystery 9 Chinatown 1974 Mystery 10 Bourne Identity, The 2002 Mystery 11 Sleuth 1941 Mystery



1 Apartment, The 1960 Romantic Comedy 2 City Lights 1931 Romantic Comedy 3 Shop Around the Corner 1940 Romantic Comedy 4 Philadelphia Story, The 1940 Romantic Comedy 5 Say Anything… 1989 Romantic Comedy 6 Bringing up Baby 1938 Romantic Comedy 7 Bull Durham 1988 Romantic Comedy 8 Moonstruck 1987 Romantic Comedy 9 When Harry Met Sally… 1989 Romantic Comedy 10 My Man Godfrey 1936 Romantic Comedy 11 Sabrina 1954 Romantic Comedy



1 A.i. Artificial Intelligence 2001 Sci-Fi 2 Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind 2004 Sci-Fi 3 E.T. - The Extra Terrestrial 1982 Sci-Fi 4 Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope 1977 Sci-Fi 5 Terminator 2: Judgement Day 1991 Sci-Fi 6 Matrix, The 1999 Sci-Fi 7 Jurassic Park 1993 Sci-Fi 8 Back to the Future 1985 Sci-Fi 9 Forbidden Planet 1956 Sci-Fi 10 Children of Men 2006 Sci-Fi



1 Rocky 1976 Sports 2 Field of Dreams 1989 Sports 3 Pride of the Yankees, The 1942 Sports 4 Bull Durham 1988 Sports 5 Raging Bull 1980 Sports 6 Jerry Maguire 1996 Sports 7 Hoosiers 1986 Sports 8 Rudy 1993 Sports 9 Chariots of Fire 1981 Sports 10 Major League 1989 Sports



1 Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, The 1962 Western 2 Searchers, The 1956 Western 3 Unforgiven 1992 Western 4 Dances with Wolves 1990 Western 5 Blazing Saddles 1974 Western 6 Red River 1948 Western 7 She Wore a Yellow Ribbon 1948 Western 8 Bend of the River 1952 Western 9 Stagecoach 1939 Western 10 Ox-Bow Incident, The 1943 Western

And I would definitely use the 'write in' option for at least two films, Epic: Since You Went Away and Western: The Naked Spur
 

george kaplan

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I found these categories to be all over the map. Some were indeed incredibly hard to pare down to 10 (as a matter of fact, I have 11 in a couple, cause I just can't eliminate any of them). When possible, I selected from the nominated list (even though that often means ones that I think are better are left off), but in some cases I just couldn't find enough nominees I could live with and had to add my own. This was especially true in sports, which is a genre dominated by a type of drama that while often done well, tends to bore the hell out of me. I actually had to add 4 of my own choices for that one.

I realize I'm breaking the rules, but it's not like I'm a real voter anyway.

BTW, these are in no particular order:

Animation:

Aladdin
Beauty and the Beast
Bug's Life, A
Dumbo
Incredibles, The
Monsters Inc.
Pinocchio
Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
Toy Story
Toy Story 2

Courtroom Drama:

Adam's Rib
Anatomy of a Murder
Caine Mutiny, The
Few Good Men, A
Judgment at Nuremberg
Talk of the Town, The
12 Angry Men
Witness for the Prosecution
Runaway Jury
They Won't Believe Me

Epic:

Ben-Hur
Braveheart
Bridge on the River Kwai, The
Forrest Gump
Godfather Part II, The
Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World
Patton
Spartacus
Ten Commandments, The
Raiders of the Lost Ark

Fantasy:

Ghost and Mrs. Muir, The
Groundhog Day
Harvey
It's a Wonderful Life
Lord of the Rings, The: The Fellowship of the Ring
Mary Poppins
Princess Bride, The
Purple Rose of Cairo, The
Who Framed Roger Rabbit
Wizard of Oz, The

Gangster:

Big Heat, The
City Streets
Godfather, The
Godfather Part II, The
Goodfellas
Heat
Key Largo
Killers, The
Some Like it Hot
White Heat

Mystery:

Big Sleep, The
Charade
Chinatown
L.A. Confidential
Maltese Falcon, The
North By Northwest
Postman Always Rings Twice, The
Rear Window
Thin Man, The
Third Man, The
Vertigo

Romantic Comedy:

Apartment, The
Bringing up Baby
It Happened One Night
My Man Godfrey
Ninotchka
Philadelphia Story, The
Pillow Talk
Shop Around the Corner
What's Up, Doc?
When Harry Met Sally…

Sci-fi:

Back to the Future
Blade Runnder
Close Encounters of The Third Kind
E.T. - The Extra Terrestrial
Jurassic Park
Planet of the Apes
Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope
Terminator 2: Judgement Day
2001: A Space Odyssey

Sports:

Angels in the Outfield
Bad News Bears, The
Caddyshack
Cool Runnings
Pat and Mike
Rocky
Meatballs
Take Me Out to the Ball Game
Dodgeball
The Fortune Cookie

Western:

Blazing Saddles
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
High Noon
Lone Star
Magnificent Seven, The
Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, The
My Darling Clementine
Unforgiven
The Professionals
Bad Day at Black Rock
 

Adam_S

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good call on the Professionals, it should have been nominated.

on my lists for many I didn't really consider them exemplers of the genre. Lone Star isn't really a western (more of a mystery, iirc), likewise North by Northwest isn't much of a mystery to me, and Vertigo is more of psychological drama, but Rear Window is a great mystery. Also Some Like it Hot has gangster bookends, but the movie primarily isn't a gangster movie. i found Romantic comedy and mystery the hardest categories to pare down, surprisingly I've seen the most of animation and of Romantic comedy, missing only about three-to five from each of the fifty nominated. I've seen the fewest of the gangster genre nominees. I found Epic the most inconsistent of the categories, and the weakest genre as defined by the films nominated (it was all over the place, should practically be renamed "war and fat book movies"). so even though I love a lot of the films left off my list more than some that are on the lists I didn't include them because they were questionable examples, at best, of that genre.
 

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