Texas hold 'em question (Now WSOP 2005 - Spoilers!) (1 Viewer)

[Richard Travale]

I had pocket aces. The guy is one of those guys that will never...ever fold before the flop. I had actually gone over the top with my pre-flop raise and he called me before I even had the words out of my mouth.


Heh, the cheap flop kills me. The guy (the above mentioned actually) is the kind of guy who will call the BB with a 7/2 off suit and somehow turn that into a winning hand.

In fact, even if you raise, and the guy is holding the 2/7, he will still call because he NEEDS to see the flop every time.

That's why I continued to play him even after he kept calling my raises. Bloody wild card players.

Oh, I'll have to decline the invite...I'm not nearly good, or brave enough to play in a game like that.
Maybe one time if I'm ever in Austin, and feeling crazy, I'll join the game.

 

[RichP]

Pocket Aces in that scenario is simply a bad beat, I would have played it the same way.

Nils:

Anytime you think you're capable let me know. I play exclusively on PokerStars and I can set up a private $1k heads up match. But be sure and come back here to tell everyone when you lose.

I have 3 WSOP events to play in over the next 2 weeks but I'm sure I can find the time.

 

[RichP]

Well, I finished 24th out of 1072 entrants in the $2000 buy-in No-Limit Hold'Em event on 6/30. Lawrence Gosney, an Englishman won the tourney, he also busted me out when he beat my A-9 with A-J.

It's my best finish in any WSOP event so far, so I'm pretty happy with that. I pocketed $9860 so you can't complain about that. I busted out of the money in the other 2 tourney's I played, but I profited overall thanks to the good finish.

I've been watching the rest of the events, including the main event which has been a lot of fun. If anyone ever has the chance to play here, I really recommend it, it's a blast!!!

 

[Steve Stogel]

New to the thread (Nils came over for a game tonight), but I just wanted to chime in. First, congrats on the nice finish at the WSOP, Rich. That's truly awesome. I was in Vegas 6/29 - 7/2 and actually went to check out the WSOP on 6/30. I was star-struck checking out all the familiar faces.

Now to the hand at question. You're saying that on a board of ATTAx, you're going to lay down the Aces full (2nd nuts) to any big bet simply for fear of running into pocket tens? I can't believe that's what you mean, as you'd surely be thinking that, worst case, you're up against the other Ace. Through reading, I realize the actual hand was ATTxx and he had pocket rockets, and that is a bad beat to be sure, but it's no different than the ATTAx example.

I'm going to have to agree that if the board has two pair on it and I hold one of the high pair, I'll go down with the ship, especially if the other community card is lower than both (I can see perhaps being scared of a TTAAK flop when you could lose to big slick, but I'm assuming it's a flop of ATTA

 

[Jerry Almeida]

I was wondering that as well Rich. Any plans on taking those winnings and entering the main event?

Congratulations!

 

[RichP]

I will quit while I'm ahead thank you! A tournament with ~6000 entrants is not really skillful poker anymore IMO, it's just a lottery with playing cards.

I think the whole Aces full hand has been blown out of proportion. I never meant to imply that not laying down a single Ace was a bad play -- it most certainly is not. I simply meant that in the crowd I play with mostly, a hard push back at a big bet with that board usually means the nuts. I suppose that in an actual game situation, I would have played it the same way that you guys would and have gone down with the ship.

It also matters whether it's a cash game or a tourney. Cash game I play that hand 100 times out of 100 -- major tourney... I don't know, maybe 95 times out of 100 depending on how good my read is on my opponent.

So I will concede that laying down that hand is statistically not the correct play, but I will also add that I've laid down many winning hands during my tournament life, and rarely regret doing so.

 

[Steve Stogel]

This is the real reason I asked, as I couldn't believe you meant this. It would be hard to ever put someone on flopped quads, as they shouldn't even breathe on that pot on the flop, and if the board paired Aces, he got just what he wanted. Of course, he doesn't even have the nuts, not knowing if someone has pocket rockets. With a single ace in your hand, you know you've got 2nd nuts, but this is the same information that the TT has (2nd nuts, and what are the odds someone has AA).


As far as the tourneys go, I was curious if you considered playing in the smaller $1,000 tourney's they're going to have this year during the main event. Seems like that would be a lot of fun to play in. I'm thinking next year I may plan to play in one or two of those. It's perfect in that you get to watch a lot of the main event and still play in a smaller buy-in, smaller field tourney.

 

[RichP]

Yea I played in 4 events this year but only made the money on one. I spent $6000 in entry fees but won $9800 so I'm up $3800 for the trip.

It's a blast and I'll most likely do it again next year. Maybe I'll play a few sats and try to win an entry to the main event just for the experience. I had Barry Greenstein at my table for 6 hours and learned a lot just by watching him.

I sat next to Jennifer Harman for an hour too, thought I was going to pass out I was so nervous. She is really much cuter in person than she is on TV, just a sweet little girl with the bite of a grizzly bear.

 

[Chris Tsutsui]

The worse beat I've seen was my friend re-raising somebody preflop when he had pocket aces and the other guy going all in for like $150. The guy only had 3, 6 of diamonds so it was pretty much a stone cold bluff.

He ended up rivering a flush and beating my friend's pocket aces.

The biggest hand I've seen was this guy had pocket aces, and he was against somebody that hit a straight flush, and I had two pair which I ended up folding.

Well the guy with the pocket aces ended up hitting a royal flush which beat out the straight flush at the table. hehe, It was the first time I saw a royal flush at a casino, and the preflop hand was pocket As for the guy that won.. hehe. What was funny is he pretty much had a bad hand until the river.

Yesterday at Excalibur I hit an open ended straight draw with the flop of 8, 8, Jack. I thought my opponent had trips so I played him... Well he slow played the ballz out of me cause he had pocket 8s which meant he flopped quads, and I of course hit my straight on the river... He check raised me, and I just called even though i thought he had at least a boat... It's kinda hard to fold when u hit the straight you've been chasing, but It's not like somebody with trips would re-raise you if the board showed a 4 card straight unless he was bluffing... Poker has tough decisions in that matter...

I got lucky though that night too because I used King Ten suited to break pocket aces in a heads up match by hitting a king high straight on the river. That always feels good... Especially when the guy flips his aces out of frustration at the river. lol

Oh my friend lost about $200 to Gus Hansen at the palms, and he said that was the most fun he ever had losing... lol

 

[Steve Stogel]

Maybe Rich was on to something...too bad it wasn't no limit.

***** Hand History for Game 2351571696 *****
$10/$20 Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, July 12, 13:10:43 EDT 2005
Table Table 10762 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 3: BitterMoon ( $796 )
Seat 4: IIIDToXIII ( $590.50 )
Seat 5: GlassJoe ( $440 )
Seat 6: REPSPOKER ( $498.50 )
Seat 1: HappyDay7 ( $205 )
Seat 2: De1irium ( $1158 )
IIIDToXIII posts small blind [$5].
GlassJoe posts big blind [$10].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to GlassJoe [ 7h 7c ]
>You have options at Table 11340 (6 max) Table!.
REPSPOKER folds.
>You have options at Table 11340 (6 max) Table!.
HappyDay7 raises [$20].
De1irium folds.
BitterMoon raises [$30].
IIIDToXIII folds.
GlassJoe calls [$20].
HappyDay7 calls [$10].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qs, 7d, 7s ]
GlassJoe checks.
HappyDay7 bets [$10].
BitterMoon raises [$20].
GlassJoe calls [$20].
HappyDay7 calls [$10].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3s ]
GlassJoe checks.
HappyDay7 bets [$20].
BitterMoon calls [$20].
GlassJoe raises [$40].
HappyDay7 calls [$20].
BitterMoon calls [$20].
** Dealing River ** [ Qh ]
GlassJoe bets [$20].
HappyDay7: you have to be XXXXing kidding me
HappyDay7 folds.
BitterMoon raises [$40].
GlassJoe raises [$40].
BitterMoon raises [$40].
>You have options at Table 11340 (6 max) Table!.
GlassJoe calls [$20].
BitterMoon shows [ Ah, Qc ] a full house, Queens full of sevens.
GlassJoe shows [ 7h, 7c ] four of a kind, sevens.
GlassJoe wins $433 from the main pot with four of a kind, sevens.

Just now getting into limit poker, but flopping quads does make it easier

 

[Brook K]

I don't think Raymer, Phil Ivey or Howard Lederer would agree with you. It will certainly make for great TV if they can keep advancing. If Raymer makes it to the final table again it will be a tremendous accomplishment and cement his resume.

I've taken a drubbing my last 2 casino trips (I play limit, I've never played no limit for $$), but I had this fun hand come up at Harrah's in New Orleans:

1st hand at a new table. I'm in middle position and get dealt A-5 diamonds. It's checked to me, I bet and get 4 callers. Flop comes A-rag-5. One check, I bet, one drops and so I'm down to 3 callers including the big blind.

On 4th it's a 5, giving me a full house. Checked to me again, I decide to risk losing a bet and check with the intent of raising. The big blind bets, get's a caller and then I raise. One guy drops, the big blind calls my raise, and the early position caller also calls my raise.

On 5th a harmless deuce. Big Blind bets, Early position folds, I raise feeling very pleased with myself that I will have gotten 2 big bet raises on the same hand, but am stunned when the Big Blind re-raises me. I go into the tank suddenly thinking (because I'd been losing and thinking luck was not on my side this trip) that somehow this guy had been slow-playing A-A or a pair with the rag card (It was a 9-7, can't remember) and would have a higher full house. The odds of this are miniscule I knew, but playing low limit in casinos you will find people who don't have a clue about betting. I've lost to plenty of 'em. But in retrospect I should have figured that since he was the BB, he probably had nothing close to AA or a pair of any sort and since he was an older gentleman, probably knew enough to have done more if he had a real hand.

Anywho, after having already lost a healthy amount this trip, I didn't want to make it any worse and simply called (knowing the proper thing would have been to raise him back). He turned over 5-2, having rivered a 5-2 full house, but not enough to beat my 5-A's full.

 

[Steve Stogel]

Okay, Brook.

Since I'm new to limit, let me know if you would have played the quads the same way. I think I got all the bets I could out of this hand. By the guy cursing the double pairing on the river, I assume he was on a flush draw that hit the turn, so perhaps I could have three-bet the flop, but I didn't want to reveal any strength in my hand just yet since I already had a guy two-bet for me. I was thrilled to keep everyone around for a second bet on the turn, and just plain lucky to have the queen hit the river.

So did I leave a bet on the flop, or would you have played it the same way? Nice thing about limit is you don't have to slow play much because if people will call, they will call (draws or 2nd pair, et cetera). So I think I like the automatic like betting of limit and the fact that you can't lose everything you've earned in one huge hand (set over set on the flop or other horrible similar hands).

 

[Doug R]

I think you bet it perfectly.. you needed to slow down to ensure people stay in the hand and catch something. Your hand was unbeatable by anything less than pocket queens at the turn. Maximize profit and you did it fine.

 

[Steve Stogel]

Yeah, I figured getting in 8-1/2 big bets with flopped quads and one guy hanging through the turn is about as good as it gets. I flopped quads one other time playing limit (5/10, I think), and had QQ and KK cap the turn when no overs were out there. They slowed on the river, but they both put in the two bets when I raised....though the trips were enough on that hand as they both missed their sets.

Limit sure is a game of rushes, though. It's supposed to have less ups and downs over no-limit, though. Right?

 

[Brook K]

No that's how I would have played it. I would check after the flop to see the bettors and I wouldn't raise. When your hand is that strong you want to give other players a chance to hit something. Usually you only get one raise/re-raise opportunity. You were doubly lucky in that you got to raise on 4th, and then your opponent hit well enough to go all the way to a cap on 5th.

 

[Steve Stogel]

Methinks I'm gonna like this limit stuff.

***** Hand History for Game 2355924199 *****
$10/$20 Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, July 13, 04:06:27 EDT 2005
Table Table 10741 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: gizmo83065 ( $311.50 )
Seat 4: GlassJoe ( $982 )
Seat 5: tywin ( $794.50 )
Seat 3: joshb24 ( $20.50 )
Seat 6: jeanie3624 ( $458.64 )
Seat 1: Ih8guks ( $538 )
GlassJoe posts small blind [$5].
tywin posts big blind [$10].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to GlassJoe [ 7c 8h ]
jeanie3624 folds.
Ih8guks folds.
gizmo83065 raises [$20].
joshb24 is all-In [$20.50]
GlassJoe calls [$15.50].
tywin calls [$10.50].
gizmo83065 calls [$0.50].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7h, 7d, 7s ]
GlassJoe checks.
tywin bets [$10].
gizmo83065 raises [$20].
GlassJoe calls [$20].
tywin calls [$10].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9c ]
GlassJoe checks.
tywin checks.
gizmo83065 bets [$20].
GlassJoe calls [$20].
tywin calls [$20].
** Dealing River ** [ 8s ]
GlassJoe: i have an 8
GlassJoe bets [$20].
tywin folds.
gizmo83065 raises [$40].
GlassJoe raises [$40].
gizmo83065 calls [$20].
GlassJoe shows [ 7c, 8h ] four of a kind, sevens.
gizmo83065 doesn't show [ 4s, 4c ] a full house, Sevens full of fours.
joshb24 doesn't show [ Ah, 9h ] a full house, Sevens full of nines.
GlassJoe wins $240 from side pot #1 with four of a kind, sevens.
GlassJoe wins $80 from the main pot with four of a kind, sevens.

Do you think the comment I bolded (that I had an 8) was unethical? I really didn't think the guy even had a 9, as he would just bet and bet and bet and this was near the end of his second $500 buy-in, but I felt a bit guilty afterwards when I checked the hand history and he had a 9.

EDIT: Upon rereading the hand history, I feel a bit better. The maniac had 44, not A9. That was the guy that was all-in preflop. So I warned him I had the 8, and he still raised with 7s full of 4s. Oops. Well, I feel better, but I'm still not sure how ethical it was as I've heard you're not supposed to talk about your hand, but I play mostly home games, and that's about all we do (as do a lot I've noticed on the site, but every once in a while someone mentions something about it, so I try to restrain, but I just couldn't help myself).

 

[Sami Kallio]

Not at all, it's their job to determine what it actually means. If you folded and then told everyone while the hand was still on then it would have been wrong. What I don't like (not your fault) is that you can check the other players hands from the log. If they don't show then they shouldn't be in the log.

 

[Steve Stogel]

Yeah, there are a couple of sites where you can't check the players hands if they muck, but the reason some sites allow you to do it is because the actual rule is that if someone calls a bet on the river, then you show, he/she is beat and mucks, you are actually allowed to request to see the hand. They do it at casinos quite frequently. As I'm sure you probably know, the rule is there to help cut down on collusion, but people abuse it all the time just to gather information. So, while I agree with you that if someone mucks you shouldn't be able to see their cards, it is useful information to have (see what they're raising with, calling with, et cetera). It definitely has no place in home games, though.

 

[Richard Travale]

No, but calling an all-in while holding a 7/8 off suit before the flop. That's the kind of move that would have Phil Hellmuth muttering for hours.

 

[Steve Stogel]

lol. I know, Richard. Of course, his "all-in" was just two small bets, basically, and Gizmo was the initiator, not Josh.

I'm new to limit, and this 6-max stuff is just insanity. Gizmo raised up almost every pot (he's on my buddy list, btw). He dropped three buy-ins overall last night ($1500). So I'm in the SB and have to call 1-1/2 bets, which should be a fold, but the button just called and is all-in, so there's already dead money in there. Tywin was loose, but he was passive (calling station). So $55 in the pot and I've got to call $15 to see the flop, and I'm thinking Tywin will call as well, so I'll be getting better than 4:1 on my call, I've got a hand that can give big hands trouble, though I didn't think for one second that Gizmo had a real hand as he raised constantly, and I'm done with the hand if I don't flop two pair or better.

Actually, if I flop one pair, I'm going to see the next card if Giz bets out because he bet every flop, and I may have even called him down with 2nd pair as he was just that aggressive. On the night, in that session, I won $1050. Overall, I lost $690 to Gizmo, and I won 1260 from him. So of my $1050 profit, over half ($570) was attributable to Mr. Gizmo.

I will not jump into another 10/20 game without first checking to see if he's on line. It was something to behold. Shoot, he raised with his 44 after I declared that I hit the 8. Dude was a laugh riot.