Tempest sonotube with klipschorns?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by alan fallert, May 18, 2002.

  1. alan fallert

    alan fallert Agent

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    Hi everyone. Has anyone used a tempest single or duel sonotube with a set of klipschorns? Can the tempest sonotube keep up with the quick bass of the folded horn design of the klipschorn? I have a set of klipschorns and would like to add a sub to them, thinking of making my own tempest sonotube mayby like the one Pat sun built on the sonotube link page, the single tempest one he calls the sonotube 2.I cant find any good plans and picturs of the duel tempest can someone help me out here? What plate amp should I use to. THANKS.
     
  2. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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  3. Tom Brennan

    Tom Brennan Screenwriter

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    IMO, with 30 years experience with horn speakers, it's difficult for direct-radiators to match basshorns in output, low distortion, dynamics and general "ease" and naturalness of sound. For a direct-radiating sub to match basshorns it needs a great deal of radiating area; big area short-stroking sounds different than small area long-stroking. I use a direct-radiating array of 4 15" JBLs to augment my Altec basshorns below 100hz and it works pretty well. Mind that the main idea behind basshorns is to get the benefit of high output with small excursions, using long stokes below 50hz and short strokes above is inconsisitent and would be like feeding a big 427 side-oiler through a 2 bbl. carb.:) The only long-stroker direct-radiator I've heard sound good with horns is the Servo-Drive Contrabass which works on different principles from normal dynamic motored drivers (and which has lots of driver area anyway, 2-15s). These are my experiences and opinions.
     
  4. alan fallert

    alan fallert Agent

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    SO Dustin, your saying no way a tempest sonotube will work good with my klipschhorns.I was going to run the klischorns by themselves, I am not going to use the tempest sub and cross it over into the klipschorns. My plan if this would work, Im using an old sansui g-7700 reciever 120 watts per channel, Im going to leave the k-horns on speaker output A, on the B side I want to hook up the tempest sonotube run it into the speaker level inputs of the plate amp and use the low level crossover to blend in the sub. If this would work, thus my k-horns will be acting alone. The sub would give me a better bottom end.But I think you are saying the bass of the sonotube is not as quick as the k-horns and would not sound good at all with them.I have heard a true subwoofer signiture would work, they say it is a perty fast sub, what do you think? Or is there another sub i could buy that would work.I might have to scap this hole sub idea and just leave the k-horns by themselves, which do sound real good anyway. Just wanted to get a little more bottom end into my 2 channel stereo system.
     
  5. Rich Kraus

    Rich Kraus Stunt Coordinator

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    or he could build an IB ( [​IMG] it my job to recomend them)
    big area, short stroke? no problem. get some tempests in your attic and your their!!
     
  6. alan fallert

    alan fallert Agent

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    Nope, that won't work k-horns are in the basement.
     
  7. Rich Kraus

    Rich Kraus Stunt Coordinator

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    no biggie, just vent the backwave into the (kitchen) above the listening room. [​IMG]
    (...or would that create an SAF problem [​IMG] )
     
  8. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    I'm not saying Tempests wouldn't work. For what you suggested I'd be more than happy with them. However, if you want to stick with the horn sound, then that link seems like the solution you are looking for.
     
  9. alan fallert

    alan fallert Agent

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    Rich, in my basement I have a drop ceiling which has about 1 foot of space to the kitchen floor. Might be possible to mount some type of IB there, but I think I would still be vinting the woofers back into the basement with the K- horns. Am I right on this?. Also the walls in my basement have 2 inch stips of wood with panaling on them, my walls are only 2inches thick and behind that is the concret. I dont know if that is enough room to get the bass from the IB from the drop ceiling. through those thin walls. By venting it into the kitchin do you mean to put the IB up there. I have a small closit under the steps that goes upstairs. But that is right behind the main lisining area, totaly faceing my k-horns. I dont know how good that would work either. This really sucks. I never heard one of these IB before, How deep does yours go 25hz or so? CAN you localize were the bass is coming from? Do you have to put this BI in the front of the room close to the main speakers?
     
  10. Rich Kraus

    Rich Kraus Stunt Coordinator

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    alan, my IB is flat +/- 2 dB (with a little eq'ing to tame a large spike at 37 or so HZ.) from crossover down to 21 hz. it isnt -6dB until about 15 hz. folks with big IB's can get real output much lower than that.
    i cannot localize the bass from mine, but my outlet is centered in the front of the room, the effect is minimised.
    there is another arround here that did an IB under a stairwell. used 2 15 DVC's if i recall. have you seen the IB projects page and FAQ? (links at the top of this page: )
    http://f20.parsimony.net/forum36475/index.htm
     
  11. ThomasW

    ThomasW Cinematographer

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    Ok let's clear something up. There is no such thing as 'quick bass'. If bass were quick it wouldn't be bass, it would be treble.

    The K-horns don't have 'quick bass' regardless of the hype from the Klipsch. They've got a single low tech and low cost paper cone 15" that dies below 33Hz (pretty standard performance for a PA based design). The horn loading gives 104db efficiency.

    So you have 2 choices. Build BIG horn loaded subs or build a regular sub, and turn down the output of the K-Horns to match the efficiency of the sub.

    Another option is the horn loaded design Tom Danley and the crew at Servo-drive are developing. There's a thread on this DIY forum a few days old
     
  12. Tom Brennan

    Tom Brennan Screenwriter

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    ThomasW---Correct, there isn't "fast" bass but there is low distortion, well-damped bass and at this horns excell, as can large arrays of direct-radiators. The sonic signatures of basshorns and small direct-radiators are incompatible IMO. But a large direct-radiating array can IME give the sonic signature of a basshorn.
     
  13. alan fallert

    alan fallert Agent

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    Ok, so there is no such thing as quick bass. The klipshorn has a good acurate bottom end that goes to 35hz. Most people on the klipch forum tell me it takes a good sub to match up with the k-horn. Sunfire signiture, svs, in that neighborhood, big buck subs for my pocket book. So I am asking If I build a sub just like pat suns sono 2 with the tempest driver, Would it work real well with my k-horns?I want to add more bass to them, and I think this sub might do the trick. I would use a plate amp in the neighborhood of 250 watts. My system right now is for music only, and will probably stay that way.
     
  14. ThomasW

    ThomasW Cinematographer

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  15. Tom Brennan

    Tom Brennan Screenwriter

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    alan---All we can do is give our opinions, we can't answer this is this or that is that with absolute certainty because audio is so subjective, what works for one person doesn't work for another. Build the Tempest, it certainly won't be bad and if you like it then it's good. If it won't keepup with the Khorns (it won't but maybe that won't matter to you) then build another.
     
  16. alan fallert

    alan fallert Agent

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    Thanks Tom, I might attempt to build this monster, if it sounds bad with my k-horns I could eventually use it in a home theater system with a differnt set of speakers. AS for the k-horns they will be with me for life, great speakers for 2 channel listening.
     
  17. Greg Monfort

    Greg Monfort Supporting Actor

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    I've been down this road with 70Hz Altec horns and learned that either IB or EBS with low Fs drivers is needed to reduce the audibility of the ~90deg phase shift of a point source (constant acceleration source) Vs the ~0deg of a horn (constant velocity source). This is the main reason IMO why the CB works so well in this app as it has ~0deg phase shift and doesn't sound like it's trying to 'catch up' to the horn because it left late like a typical point source design.

    Still, our hearing acuity down low isn't very good, and if a 4th order XO is used and you can get the acoustic phasing in the ballpark between the two systems it should work fine if you put the Tempest in a big enough cab and tuned low enough if vented.

    Just looking at sims, 14ft^3 sealed or tuned to ~14Hz should do it. In theory the XO point ideally needs to be up around 100Hz to keep acoustic phase offset to a minimum, but since the sonosub can't be in a corner and the room modes affect phase, you'll have to experiment to find the best blend since the corner horn has it's acoustic center ~7ms outside the room IIRC.

    GM
     

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