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TEMPEST IN A TEAPOT OR TITUS (1 Viewer)

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bluelaughaminute

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tele1962 said:
I can not see for the life off me why TT has to charge these ridiculously high prices for what after all are bear bones releases.
Have you not read the points that have been made lots of times in lots of posts from lots of people including TT themselves ?
The RRP of TT releases are similar to the RRP of most other companies . But other companies don't limit the release to just 3000 units.
Because there are only 3000 all of the TT stock can be sold by a couple of sites only so the competition is non existent hence no discounting.
A standard release from most other companies won't be a limited edition so copies are supplied to every retailer who wants them who then cut the margins to the bone to compete with other sites.
Months down the line ( or weeks if you're Arrow or Network) prices drop like a stone to the sort of prices that many punters expect to pay for all their purchases all the time .
Obviously if nobody wanted to pay more than these heavily discounted prices the market would struggle .
It seems that some studios have lost faith in catalogue titles and Bluray in general hence not wanting to release the titles themselves .
Although some seem more confident to sell in non US markets .
 

Moe Dickstein

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Plus Criterion et.al. are not paying 100% of the fee to license the title up front, TT is the only one using that model currently, and with that comes the need to be very focused in terms of where items are sold and the price they are sold for, they don't get a rebate if a title were to be discounted in the amount paid, whereas other companies are paying a royalty on what they do sell and the amount sold so they have a lot more flexibility on pricing.
 

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bluelaughaminute said:
Have you not read the points that have been made lots of times in lots of posts from lots of people including TT themselves ?
The RRP of TT releases are similar to the RRP of most other companies . But other companies don't limit the release to just 3000 units.
Because there are only 3000 all of the TT stock can be sold by a couple of sites only so the competition is non existent hence no discounting.
A standard release from most other companies won't be a limited edition so copies are supplied to every retailer who wants them who then cut the margins to the bone to compete with other sites.
Months down the line ( or weeks if you're Arrow or Network) prices drop like a stone to the sort of prices that many punters expect to pay for all their purchases all the time .
Obviously if nobody wanted to pay more than these heavily discounted prices the market would struggle .
It seems that some studios have lost faith in catalogue titles and Bluray in general hence not wanting to release the titles themselves .
Although some seem more confident to sell in non US markets .
For the record, I don't believe this is quite correct.

The official reason and cause and effect chain is, as I understand it, as follows:

[*]TT pays the full license fee up front, which is why the studio licenses it to them in the first place for a period of 3 years in the US market.
[*]To make this up-front payment affordable for TT to license and produce, and to achieve their average expected sales target, a figure of 3,000 units has been chosen.
[*]This necessitates a premium price of $30 or $35 at 3,000 units in order to make it potentially profitable for TT.
[*]TT has stated that even with the premium price, they need to sell 2,000 out of the 3,000 units just to break even on each title.
[*]Some titles take months, maybe years to reach the break even point, thus the costs of the slow/low sellers are offset by the quick-selling titles.
[*]TT has a policy of not discounting any title, ever. This is to make sure that people actually buy the BDs when they come out, rather than waiting for a price drop, which would put TT out of pocket and might lead to each title making a loss even if all copies are sold.
[/list]
It's a unique model, and again, I encourage people who do not understand to actually READ this Interview with Nick Redman, in full, before commenting on why they can't believe TT is doing this or that, "TT needs to print more copies and sell them more cheaply", etc.
 

bluelaughaminute

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Persianimmortal said:
For the record, I don't believe this is quite correct.

The official reason and cause and effect chain is, as I understand it, as follows:

[*]TT pays the full license fee up front, which is why the studio licenses it to them in the first place for a period of 3 years in the US market.
[*]

[*]To make this up-front payment affordable for TT to license and produce, and to achieve their average expected sales target, a figure of 3,000 units has been chosen.
[*]

[*]This necessitates a premium price of $30 or $35 at 3,000 units in order to make it potentially profitable for TT.
[*]

[*]TT has stated that even with the premium price, they need to sell 2,000 out of the 3,000 units just to break even on each title.
[*]

[*]Some titles take months, maybe years to reach the break even point, thus the costs of the slow/low sellers are offset by the quick-selling titles.
[*]

[*]TT has a policy of not discounting any title, ever. This is to make sure that people actually buy the BDs when they come out, rather than waiting for a price drop, which would put TT out of pocket and might lead to each title making a loss even if all copies are sold.
[*]
[/list]
It's a unique model, and again, I encourage people who do not understand to actually READ this Interview with Nick Redman, in full, before commenting on why they can't believe TT is doing this or that, "TT needs to print more copies and sell them more cheaply", etc.
But my points remain valid.
As you say TT don't discount but because they only print 3000 and are only available from 2 outlets there really isn't a need for them to do so but a larger print run would mean copies available from more places which would lead to discounting.
 

Winston T. Boogie

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Yes, I think that these are the things that people have to understand. 3000 units gives Twilight a way to present a fixed cost on their product. With only 3000 units for sale these are not items that are meant to be distributed to major retailers like Amazon, Wal-Mart, Best Buy, or Target. These retailers would require thousands more units be created and then sold to them at a discounted price because they are buying large quantities.

And where would all these additional units rapidly end up? In $5.00 dump bins and discount deals selling for under $10.00. Not because the product has no value but because the demand for the product is small and the window for getting a fair price for these blu-rays even smaller. Only when the blu-ray is first released is it usually possible for them to turn a profit on a blu-ray sale because that's when the people that really want the film snap it up. After that initial grab is over sales will slow to a trickle and all the units left on the shelf start collecting dust.

This is why I said the $5.00 dump bins and discount pricing is what is killing blu-ray not the Twilight model. Those prices are great for the guy that has a limited budget and wants to get 4 films for $20.00 but they mean that the people producing these blu-rays know most of their product will be sold at a loss or end up in a landfill. Where is the incentive to sell a product if there is no profit in doing so?

Retailers like Amazon, Wal-Mart, and Target don't care about the product at this point and slash the prices just to get rid of it and make room for the next batch of new releases...which as we know arrive weekly. Plus these retailers do not specialize in this product. They sell a wide variety of products and so blu-ray is the same as selling a hair dryer or a box of cookies. To Wal-Mart a blu-ray is just an additional item you might see in a dump bin and toss into your cart to increase the total sale of your visit.

I found it interesting that some people opposed to what Twilight charges claim that they don't want the Twilight titles to be discounted to $5.00 or $10.00 but they think $20.00 to $25.00 is a fair price...so what they are saying is the breaking point that pushes Twilight into the "unreasonable" cost range is only $5.00-$10.00 more.

Somehow it makes no sense that a person that will happily pay $25.00 for a Twilight title has a huge issue if the title is $30.00 instead. To me the real problem here is that blu-ray and physical media has been harmed by the pricing structure created by the major retailers. Once people get used to paying no more than $5.00-$15.00 for a blu-ray they see $30.00 and to them they immediately think as the retailers have programmed them to think "I'll wait for it to go on sale."

In retail land the idea is always to present a high MSRP and then sell below that to make people think they are getting a deal. Going with this idea what Twilight should have done is start with the same retail price as Criterion, $39.99, and then have sales twice a year where they discount the price to $29.99 and people would have happily bought at that price because they felt like they were getting $10.00 off.

Basically, what I feel Twilight has done is just started with a more honest price that is designed to cover their expense of doing these 3000 runs of catalog titles that studios are not getting out there. You get a good product at a fair price and none of the retail nonsense.

Only a handful of the Twilight titles have sold out and only one or two sold out in a day. The majority of their titles are still available so obviously the 3000 number works.

I think only two of their titles caused any kind of major stir, Christine and that zombie comedy film from Dan O'Bannon. I basically think this is because sci-fi and horror film collectors are a rabid bunch and there is a bigger market for these films. In the case of these films though as somebody else said Twilight were the good guys for getting these films out and the studios that licensed them were the ones that misjudged the demand for them.
 

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bluelaughaminute said:
Have you not read the points that have been made lots of times in lots of posts from lots of people including TT themselves ?
The RRP of TT releases are similar to the RRP of most other companies . But other companies don't limit the release to just 3000 units.
Because there are only 3000 all of the TT stock can be sold by a couple of sites only so the competition is non existent hence no discounting.
A standard release from most other companies won't be a limited edition so copies are supplied to every retailer who wants them who then cut the margins to the bone to compete with other sites.
Months down the line ( or weeks if you're Arrow or Network) prices drop like a stone to the sort of prices that many punters expect to pay for all their purchases all the time .
Obviously if nobody wanted to pay more than these heavily discounted prices the market would struggle .
It seems that some studios have lost faith in catalogue titles and Bluray in general hence not wanting to release the titles themselves .
Although some seem more confident to sell in non US markets .
This is deadlock.
 

Dick

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bluelaughaminute said:
Have you not read the points that have been made lots of times in lots of posts from lots of people including TT themselves ?
The RRP of TT releases are similar to the RRP of most other companies . But other companies don't limit the release to just 3000 units.
Because there are only 3000 all of the TT stock can be sold by a couple of sites only so the competition is non existent hence no discounting.
A standard release from most other companies won't be a limited edition so copies are supplied to every retailer who wants them who then cut the margins to the bone to compete with other sites.
Months down the line ( or weeks if you're Arrow or Network) prices drop like a stone to the sort of prices that many punters expect to pay for all their purchases all the time .
Obviously if nobody wanted to pay more than these heavily discounted prices the market would struggle .
It seems that some studios have lost faith in catalogue titles and Bluray in general hence not wanting to release the titles themselves .
Although some seem more confident to sell in non US markets .
I guess that, after 145 posts, if someone doesn't get the answer to this question, we should simply stop responding. It's endlessly redundant, and a highly partisan issue. It will lead nowhere, There are clearly two sides to this argument and no one on either side is going to bend. In spite of information provided to help educate, this was long ago a dead thread.
 

Dick

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Dick said:
I should not be self-righteous, and I apologize for seeming to be so. I am really just a movie collector who loves reading the threads on Home Theater Forum. I've been here a while and have contributed a lot of opinions which have no bearing on much of anything as I am not part of the film community, but I also think I've offered some valuable tidbits of information on occasion. I do get annoyed by some posters who do not share my views, but have to realize the reverse is also true. The give and take on these threads represents democracy at its best -- the expression of opinions without censorship (within HTF guidelines) and the agreements/disagreements that inevitably arise. Still, I can't help but find ridiculous the almost obsessive Twilight Time price point arguments. This has gone on for far too long.
 

David_B_K

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Dick said:
I guess that, after 145 posts, if someone doesn't get the answer to this question, we should simply stop responding. It's endlessly redundant, and a highly partisan issue. It will lead nowhere, There are clearly two sides to this argument and no one on either side is going to bend. In spite of information provided to help educate, this was long ago a dead thread.
Yes, it is almost tempting to simply copy, paste and repost one's comments rather than recompose the same arguments when one is saying the same thing all over again.---EDIT---I like Reggie W's long explanation above. I work in a business that sells at the wholesale and retail level. I applaud anybody that can make a profit margin these days when most retailers/e-tailers are locked in a race to the bottom.
 

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TT are also to be thanked for putting out blu-rays region free, unlike Criterion. It would be interesting to know how many copies Criterion press. I doubt many of their titles sell over 3,000 copies at the full price.
 

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bluelaughaminute said:
It seems that some studios have lost faith in catalogue titles and Bluray in general hence not wanting to release the titles themselves .
Sublicensing deals to 3rd party distributors like this are often safer investments than risking the consumer market themselves, even if they might make a better profit by releasing them on their own. The old addage "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" applies here.

It's not that the studios have lost faith, it's more that there exists some risk that the title might not meet sales projections while selling the distribution rights to some of these deep catalog titles at a flat rate is a risk-free investment. Smaller 3rd party distributors tend to be more inclined to accept these risks than the larger studio-based companies.
 

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Reggie W said:
Somehow it makes no sense that a person that will happily pay $25.00 for a Twilight title has a huge issue if the title is $30.00 instead. To me the real problem here is that blu-ray and physical media has been harmed by the pricing structure created by the major retailers. Once people get used to paying no more than $5.00-$15.00 for a blu-ray they see $30.00 and to them they immediately think as the retailers have programmed them to think "I'll wait for it to go on sale."
Agreed.

At one point last week, the 2-Disc Lawrence of Arabia restoration was available for $6.98 from Amazon (barely the cost of an import pint). Another beautifully restored classic, and late-2013 release, From Here to Eternity is currently $4.99 (a Starbucks).

These aren't great "deals"; they're gross "devaluations" of a premium 4k-mastered home video product. And thanks to such ruthless pursuit of market-share-at-all-costs, a couple of hundred more mid-to-high profile catalogue titles, which otherwise might have stayed with the home label, will now go to Twilight Time and other cottage labels instead. Hundreds more won't get released at all in hard media form unless they are lucky enough to find a home with one of these upstart cottage labels who respect their value via firm (but fair) bottom line.
Reggie W said:
In retail land the idea is always to present a high MSRP and then sell below that to make people think they are getting a deal. Going with this idea what Twilight should have done is start with the same retail price as Criterion, $39.99, and then have sales twice a year where they discount the price to $29.99 and people would have happily bought at that price because they felt like they were getting $10.00 off.
Well, TT does offer such deals, of sorts, via their autographed offerings. There have been several of those each year, recently in back-to-back months. I mean, that really amounts to a 'Buy 3 or 4 and get one FREE' type of deal (effectively $24 per Blu)...sweetened immeasurably by the siggy of a George Steven Jr., Stuart Cooper, Patrick Wayne or Malcolm McDowell.

In the otherwise impersonal, dully predictable world of modern retail, core movie fans and collectors love that 'above and beyond the call' attention to detail and pride in product, and the quick sellouts of those special autographed editions prove it.
Reggie W said:
Basically, what I feel Twilight has done is just started with a more honest price that is designed to cover their expense of doing these 3000 runs of catalog titles that studios are not getting out there. You get a good product at a fair price and none of the retail nonsense.
As noted previously, my skin in this as a consumer is a reassurance that TT is simply providing a more realistic and sustainable model for the kind of niche, vintage movie product that most interests me. Honestly, I don't care whether casually interested buyers cannot snag these discs for $10 - $15 in Wal*Mart...they've proven repeatedly that they wouldn't care enough about most of this stuff anyway...at any price.
 

Moe Dickstein

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bluelaughaminute said:
But my points remain valid.As you say TT don't discount but because they only print 3000 and are only available from 2 outlets there really isn't a need for them to do so but a larger print run would mean copies available from more places which would lead to discounting.
No your point is not valid - remember that if they were to do a larger run than 3000, that would then mean they have to invest more capital up front in the release as the fee they pay is linked to the size of the run.You could still sell 3000 copies at many stores, the point of their model is to never discount, and that can only be controlled by selling through one retailer. Anyone else you see selling the titles beyond SAE is buying them through SAE and re-selling. If TT were to enter "more stores" they would have to shift to a wholesale model where they get a lot less per disc and therefore would not earn enough to EVER break even. This would apply no matter how many they sold, due to the up front licensing agreement.So no, you point is not valid.
 

bluelaughaminute

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JoHud said:
Sublicensing deals to 3rd party distributors like this are often safer investments than risking the consumer market themselves, even if they might make a better profit by releasing them on their own. The old addage "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" applies here.

It's not that the studios have lost faith, it's more that there exists some risk that the title might not meet sales projections while selling the distribution rights to some of these deep catalog titles at a flat rate is a risk-free investment. Smaller 3rd party distributors tend to be more inclined to accept these risks than the larger studio-based companies.
Yes but its obvious that Sony have made some erroneous descisions about which films will only be suitable for selling 3000 units in the USA and they could have sold titles like Fright Night , Christine , Body Double and some others many times over . But I guess that's the luck of the draw
Moe Dickstein said:
No your point is not valid - remember that if they were to do a larger run than 3000, that would then mean they have to invest more capital up front in the release as the fee they pay is linked to the size of the run.You could still sell 3000 copies at many stores, the point of their model is to never discount, and that can only be controlled by selling through one retailer. Anyone else you see selling the titles beyond SAE is buying them through SAE and re-selling.If TT were to enter "more stores" they would have to shift to a wholesale model where they get a lot less per disc and therefore would not earn enough to EVER break even. This would apply no matter how many they sold, due to the up front licensing agreement.So no, you point is not valid.
My point is completely valid because in a far more concise way I am saying exactly the same as you . Where did I say TT should print more than 3000?
Answer - I didn't. I explained how a larger run might affect things - I wasn't suggesting it was something they should do although I can see how you may think that I was if you only read that post on its own without reading my earlier ones.

My original post explained part of the reason for the TT pricing .
The other post just explained in a bit more detail so like yours it didn't actually disagree with me at all.
Just because I explained WHAT happens doesn't mean I don't know WHY it happens so both of the follow up posts say nothing new
 

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Keith Cobby said:
TT are also to be thanked for putting out blu-rays region free, unlike Criterion. It would be interesting to know how many copies Criterion press. I doubt many of their titles sell over 3,000 copies at the full price.
Isn't the enforcement of region coding part of the contracts?
With Criterion dvd's most were region free but some were coded .
Several other labels like Shout issue discs region locked and region coded . One must assume the coding is forced upon them by the films owner.
Pick up the UK Bluray of Silent Running and try to play it in a Region A player and you'll get a full page rant/ explanation from the the Bluray company about why they were forced to lock it even though they didn't want to .
Back in the day at the dawn of dvd Anchor Bay discs were always region free - until they started releasing product from Studio Canal so I think releasing region free is always what labels prefer not least of all because it means more overseas sales .
 

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Without naming names there's an awful lot of unpleasant elitism here - the suggestion that a Blu-ray must be priced at a high level or otherwise the plebs will not appreciate all the hard work which goes into making them available! I'm neither a critic nor cheer-leader of TT (unlike many here) but simply a consumer and I buy those titles which I feel really, really want (six so far). But I do get a bit tired of constantly reading that the moaners wouldn't even buy them if the were $5. That's just silly - I'd certainly buy quite a few more if they were $5 :)
 

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RobHam said:
Bruce - no criticism towards yourself was inferred in previous comments. Quite the opposite actually - apologies if its been taken the wrong way.

What this thread shows, beyond the bletherings of the pro and anti Twilight Time cliques, is the need for communication from Twilight Time at the pre-order announcements of exactly what they've got - source, age, condition etc. In effect, this prepares and manages the consumer expectations in advance.

As a sort of final addendum to this thread (from moi), one of the first blu rays I ever bought was the UK released Zulu. At the time, I thought WOW. I watched it again a few nights ago and its anything but wow - the contrast boosting makes it close to unwatchable at times. I think our expectations for what we want from a high def source are changing - becoming much more demanding of transfers. Titus may have just got caught in the crossfire.

Collecting movies appears to be a very emotional process - I still get annoyed every time I see the spine of Von Ryan's Express in my collection.
First, I completely agree with your feelings about VON RYAN'S EXPRESS. One of my favorite WWII flicks, and it looks as bad as a Koch release. They may have crappy source material, but if I was working for Fox Home Video I would at least voice an objection to releasing such a shoddy Blu-ray.

Your remarks about TT forewarning potential buyers about video quality is astute, but perhaps not realistic. How many people would purchase a fairly expensive Blu-ray having been told by the company releasing it that it had PQ issues? That really falls into the lap of internet forum reviewers (and the accuracy of their comments certainly varies from site to site). If TT told you "We will be releasing [fill in title] but need to let you know that there are some DNR, color, contrast, EE and aliasing issues," how likely will it be that you make a purchase? I think Nick Redman and company are doing an incredible job getting these titles out to us, but I think they would be shooting themselves in the feet if they devaluated their own product.
 

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Douglas R said:
Without naming names there's an awful lot of unpleasant elitism here - the suggestion that a Blu-ray must be priced at a high level or otherwise the plebs will not appreciate all the hard work which goes into making them available! I'm neither a critic nor cheer-leader of TT (unlike many here) but simply a consumer and I buy those titles which I feel really, really want (six so far). But I do get a bit tired of constantly reading that the moaners wouldn't even buy them if the were $5. That's just silly - I'd certainly buy quite a few more if they were $5 :)
Actually it's not elitist for a company to price their product where they can make a profit. I'm with you in that I purchase what I want and pass on others. I'm not a horror fan so I passed on Fright Night and Christen and I do not feel left out. I do order when pre orders are available for I still, in the back of my mind, think there are more than 3000 people that want a Blu-ray of THE BLUE MAX or BYE BYE BIRDIE. I guess I'm jaded on classic movies.
 

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If TT are listening how long before First Men In the Moon appears. If it's too long I may be able to record an HD version off C4 on my shiny new Bluray recorder but I'd prefer a TT version with isolated score.
 
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