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RobertMG

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I'm sure you're right about that. I'm just relieved it's mostly cosmetic (at least as I've been able to ascertain so far).
They need what 6 hosts to replace Robert Osborne -- he was TCM! Stop the garbage about putting films in context - Every ethnic and racial peoples have been treated like second class citizens for decades in the USA - I have an Italian heritage - a friend sent me an article from the NYT in 1904 that a new street was being worked on and "NO ITALIANS WOULD BE HIRED FOR THIS WORK" Italians were called "WOPS" w/o papers - I realize these films are 80-90 years old - sadly Song Of The South is a great example I saw it in its theatrical re-issue in the 70's all I saw was a great old movie - NOT anything racial ---- hate is taught not natural - my parents raised us to respect all.
 

RobertMG

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They need what 6 hosts to replace Robert Osborne -- he was TCM! They need to stop the garbage about putting films in context - Every ethnic and racial peoples have been treated like second class citizens for decades in the USA - I have an Italian heritage - a friend sent me an article from the NYT in 1904 that a new street was being worked on and "NO ITALIANS WOULD BE HIRED FOR THIS WORK" Italians were called "WOPS" w/o papers - I realize these films are 80-90 years old - sadly Song Of The South is a great example I saw it in its theatrical re-issue in the 70's all I saw was a great old movie - NOT anything racial ---- hate is taught not natural - my parents raised us to respect all.
Hate is NOT natural it is taught
 
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[email protected]!

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I thoroughly enjoyed TCM when it was Robert Osborne-centric. He was wonderful and so was his work. I had a lovely chat with him while he was alive in NYC and was able to tell him so. I also am a huge fan of ALL THE NEW HOSTS and their added curation and context. I have always been an ardent filmgoer. I am a Stage Director by trade and was an actor for twenty years before that, trained at Carnegie-Mellon and UCLA respectively. I am also African American. I do not have the luxury of not thinking about race. Not ever. It is not all I think about but race does not come and go for me nor is it ever something I can forget. My tastes and artistic curiosity are wide-ranging and eclectic but for many people, perhaps many like me the context and curation brought by Ben and the new hosts are as welcome and as "essential" as Robert Osborne.
 

Johnny Angell

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The Searchers (1956), a classic Western directed by John Ford, stars John Wayne as a Confederate veteran who devotes his life to rescuing a young niece (Natalie Wood) who has been kidnapped by Comanches. The Wayne character is overtly racist, and many argue that the label also applies to the film itself, as the characterization of Indigenous people is both stereotypical and underdeveloped.
I’ve always known Ethan was a racist, and he was meant to be by the film makers. I read a “making of” book about the film. The first half was about native Americans and those not. Both sides committed atrocities. Native Americans kidnapped young girls to be brides and we kidnapped civilizations to enslave them.
 

RobertMG

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I am disappointed that they do not recycle some of Robert Osborne's great intros.
Wonder if it has to do with his estate? He built TCM from the ground up - sadly slowly but surely they are forgetting him.
 

RobertMG

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I thoroughly enjoyed TCM when it was Robert Osborne-centric. He was wonderful and so was his work. I had a lovely chat with him while he was alive in NYC and was able to tell him so. I also am a huge fan of ALL THE NEW HOSTS and their added curation and context. I have always been an ardent filmgoer. I am a Stage Director by trade and was an actor for twenty years before that, trained at Carnegie-Mellon and UCLA respectively. I am also African American. I do not have the luxury of not thinking about race. Not ever. It is not all I think about but race does not come and go for me nor is it ever something I can forget. My tastes and artistic curiosity are wide-ranging and eclectic but for many people, perhaps many like me the context and curation brought by Ben and the new hosts are as welcome and as "essential" as Robert Osborne.
Well said --- but the channel will start to turn people off being too WOKE if I want politics I put on CNN, FOX, MSNBC etc for classic film I put on TCM. Our culture is worse now than it was 40 years ago thanks to shows like Morton Downey Jr, Geraldo, Springer - WPIX here in NY once great classic tv station is now sleaze - I love going to TCM to enjoy movies classic films a product of their time I do not try to read more into them. Think about the fact that all the major studios were owned or operated by men of the Jewish faith yet they turned out films like "Going My Way" "The Bells Of St Mary's" "Boys Town" they made films for the masses once the films stars came back from the War and got more control of their careers most damaged themselves - the studios groomed them and gave them films that made their careers and what killed the film biz besides tv? The US Govt divorcement decree, the studios existed to supply their owned theater chains with product.
 

Suzanne.S

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I find it disappointing and distressing that so many people are complaining about TCM's efforts to put films in context. It is important to do so. Ignoring the ugly parts of the past imply agreement with the sentiments. Context is extremely important, especially if younger fans are to engage with older films. Many important truths are not being taught in school and historical context can be a key to reaching those audiences. This refresh seems to be an attempt to reach a younger demographic while still keeping true to the "classic" mission of Turner Classic Movies. I don't see it as being political, but humanistic to look at the good, the bad and the ugly and to then be able to relate it to the strides that have been made and the work that is yet to be done. TCM obviously sees that this is important to people of all ages, but more importantly to a demographic that they need to attract to continue on.

And, Robert Osborne is far from forgotten. The TCMDb has many of his introductions included with trailers and clips on the various film's pages.
 

RobertMG

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I find it disappointing and distressing that so many people are complaining about TCM's efforts to put films in context. It is important to do so. Ignoring the ugly parts of the past imply agreement with the sentiments. Context is extremely important, especially if younger fans are to engage with older films. Many important truths are not being taught in school and historical context can be a key to reaching those audiences. This refresh seems to be an attempt to reach a younger demographic while still keeping true to the "classic" mission of Turner Classic Movies. I don't see it as being political, but humanistic to look at the good, the bad and the ugly and to then be able to relate it to the strides that have been made and the work that is yet to be done. TCM obviously sees that this is important to people of all ages, but more importantly to a demographic that they need to attract to continue on.

And, Robert Osborne is far from forgotten. The TCMDb has many of his introductions included with trailers and clips on the various film's pages.
The joy of film is watching film NOT being lectured by suits running corporations - colleges and film study courses are the proper places to view films in context the younger gen love their phones they do not love tv! Well today the big news is ABBA announcing their return with new music! I love your thoughts though! Remember a few years back when FXM Channel showed the Chan films and George Takei bullied them into having a roundtable to discuss the films and the fact they did not have Chan played by an Asian despite having Asians playing his family members - overlooked was Sessue Hayakawa was a huge silent film star here in he states.
 
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Robert Crawford

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The joy of film is watching film NOT being lectured by suits running corporations - colleges and film study courses are the proper places to view films in context the younger gen love their phones they do not love tv! Well today the big news is ABBA announcing their return with new music! I love your thoughts though! Remember a few years back when FXM Channel showed the Chan films and George Takei bullied them into having a roundtable to discuss the films and the fact they did not have Chan played by an Asian despite having Asians playing his family members - overlooked was Sessue Hayakawa was a huge silent film star here in he states.
The issue with the Chan movies over on Fox had more to do with at that time, a certain wife of Fox's owner than anything Takei has done.

TCM is trying to expand their audience beyond you, I and those like us because it's the only way they can stay viable in the future.

If you don't like how they discuss the movies then simply skip over them and watch just the movie.
 

David Weicker

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I felt the 'Reframed' discussions were not balanced. Instead of a back and forth discussion, all the hosts were in complete agreement (something that doesn't occur in real life).

And it felt like we, the audience, were being told that although we were allowed to see the film, we weren't allowed to enjoy it.

It felt very sledge-hammerly.
Just to clarify.

I have no problem with the 'Reframed' as a concept. I even welcome it.

I just felt that the current iteration did a poor job at what it was trying to do.
 

Robert Crawford

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Just to clarify.

I have no problem with the 'Reframed' as a concept. I even welcome it.

I just felt that the current iteration did a poor job at what it was trying to do.
And, I felt they did a great job at it so I guess it depends on the person watching the concept.
 

RobertMG

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The issue with the Chan movies over on Fox had more to do with at that time, a certain wife of Fox's owner than anything Takei has done.

TCM is trying to expand their audience beyond you, I and those like us because it's the only way they can stay viable in the future.
Was it politics with Takei thank u for that. Still believe "If it ain't broke" USA is getting tired of all things WOKE --- will eventually turn more people off than on. And we see that happening for sure --- in the meantime I am putting something out there --- keep your fingers crossed for some really great news for lovers classic old films and serials!
 

Robert Crawford

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Was it politics with Takei thank u for that. Still believe "If it ain't broke" USA is getting tired of all things WOKE --- will eventually turn more people off than on. And we see that happening for sure --- in the meantime I am putting something out there --- keep your fingers crossed for some really great news for lovers classic old films and serials!
Alright, lets stop now as this discussion is becoming too political especially with terms like "woke".
 

RobertMG

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Alright, lets stop now as this discussion is becoming too political especially with terms like "woke".
U are correct but that is exactly what TCM is changing to I will not mention the term again! But that term rhymed perfectly! Maybe I should find a co songwriter? Thank u Mr C!
 

Reggie W

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I’ve always known Ethan was a racist, and he was meant to be by the film makers. I read a “making of” book about the film. The first half was about native Americans and those not. Both sides committed atrocities. Native Americans kidnapped young girls to be brides and we kidnapped civilizations to enslave them.

Yes, I mean I think the list of pictures now that they would feel the need to add a contextual introduction to is huge. So, the simplification of it would be to just put a standard disclaimer in front of every picture made prior to the year 2000.

I have not seen any episodes of Reframed so I can't comment on what they are doing or saying on the show. The good is nobody is banning any of these pictures. They are now showing them with added context. It does seem like this is something people would not need, as why would they not grasp these pictures were made in a different time when there were different prevailing attitudes.

However, we've had a massive explosion of open racism in the United States since 2016. It does not appear to be getting better but growing worse and so I think a lot of folks want to see "clarification" now that this is not something we tolerate but that we, as a nation and people, are trying to get past. If we can.

I am fine with them doing this if it makes people feel better and/or opens them up more to the films. Not too long ago I listened to a podcast where a bunch of young guys discussed The Searchers. I honestly had no idea what was coming when I put it on. They absolutely destroyed the picture. They felt it was as "offensive" as any Nazi propaganda film ever made. There was the racism, the treatment of women, Ethan Edwards (Wayne) was a horrible character, Wayne himself personally was a horrible human being, it went on an on. They basically appeared to feel that Wayne pictures in general should be pulled from circulation as he should just not be supported in any way.

Honestly, in the moment I was kind of shocked. Then I thought about it and the truth was it seemed like these guys had little context with respect to the picture and when it was made and the time it was set in. I'm sure that these guys are not just an anomaly. I would guess there are many people that feel the way they do.

I recall sitting at a screening of Blazing Saddles probably 8 or 10 years ago. Some people at the screening were truly enraged by the film. There were people walking out. Yelling about the blatant and disgusting racism in the picture and could not believe someone would dare show it.

Again, I was sort of shocked in the moment. These people did not at all understand the comedy or what Mel Brooks was doing. They literally took the picture at face value and got offended.

Brooks was not celebrating racism he was brutally making fun of it...but it was satire and the sad fact is, it seems large portions of the population no longer grasp satire. Try to make a list of the satirical films made in the last 20 some years. It won't be much of a list and what there is will be independently funded pictures because large companies won't touch satire with a ten foot pole.

I hate that because I love satire.

When I read about the making of Jungle Cruise I was, well, just floored by all of the things they had to do to make the picture. A central character had to be flipped from male to female. The headhunters could not actually be headhunters but people pretending to be headhunters. Any item that could be seen as "offensive" needed to be scrubbed or reworked into a celebration of a person, gender, or race. A gay character needed to be inserted in the picture but not with any real open reference to the character being gay. All this while trying to stick to the Pirates of the Caribbean formula.

That's not writing a story or script it is just a presentation of a series of rules and restrictions. There is no push to "Go be creative!" it is the opposite of "Follow these rules or we don't make this!"

Problem is you are now handed this same book of rules and restrictions on every big budget picture.

Would they make The Searchers today? Well, probably not the script that Ford shot. It would be adjusted and changed and turned into something else. Would they make Blazing Saddles today? No way. Basically, if they looked at what these pictures were about they would just pass and walk away.

Is that a good or bad development? I guess that's a matter of personal perspective.

Do people need to think about the context when watching a picture? Yes, if they want to understand it. I think the thing is now though that pictures over the last 20 some years have gone overboard to try to explain everything to an audience. You are not supposed to do subtle, you need to make everything so obvious it is written in 40 foot high day glow letters. If you do something an audience member might miss or misunderstand...you are doing it wrong.

They did not do that back then. The central characters could be horrible people with massive flaws but the thought was the audience would understand that...not worship the character. Ethan Edwards is a horrible guy bent on revenge and filled with bloodlust. He wants to kill his niece not save her. To him she is now spoiled by being taken by the Comanche. You could shade things and be subtle.

Now I guess, a lot of people watch it and think "What? They made a racist the hero of this picture! Horrible!"
 

Robert Crawford

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Now I guess, a lot of people watch it and think "What? They made a racist the hero of this picture! Horrible!"
Those people need to take a longer look at that film's ending. Without question it has meaning that Ethan Edwards isn't a hero and is a social outcast which is why he never enters the house like the others. The closing of the door says it all!

 

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