SVS vs Velodyne SPL vs Sunfire (1 Viewer)

[Edward J M]

None other than John E. Johnson, Jr. tests the AR1 in January of 2000.

The in-room FR sweep shows a flat response to 20 Hz - the self imposed limit of his testing for full range units. At 4 meters he measures 100 dB at 20 Hz. Pretty impressive, but no THD reading. He also quotes "And, I am sure the sub will go lower than 20 Hz."

"The performance of the subwoofers was phenomenal, thanks to the 500 watts of Class D amplifier supplied by Sunfire. I had not heard a Sunfire subwoofer amp driving a 15" cone before, and WOW! The membranes in my reference electrostatic panels shimmered from the bass intensity. All with no rattling, booming, or clipping. This is some product!"

Sounds like the real deal to me, guys. Let's face it, Reese may have taken some artistic license, but hell, we're all guilty of it occasionally. Two 15" drivers with 1000 watts of Class D power is nothing to shake a stick at, and if it impressed the hell out of Dr. Johnson - that's good enough for me.

Regards,

Ed

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...rs-1-2000.html

 

[Kieran Coghlan]

Not everything can be categorized, stereotyped, and easily referenced, if you fail to predict the unpredictable in a world full of endless possibilities you put yourself at the mercy of circumstances which though may have a solution will be unsurmountable to those unable to accept anything but what they believe to be absolute and irrefutable with any notion of an alternative being positively impossible.

Wow. It may be a run-on, but what an entertaining one!

 

[Steve Stogel]

Reese says...


I think Edward is as firm an SVS supporter on this site as there is, and he has dug up information that backs you up, Reese. Pretty classy move, I think, by an SVS desciple. Thank you, Edward, for the information. I think it's obvious that these AR1s are no DefTech clone.

Steve

 

[RISUG]

Aye, yi yi.

Hey Mike my apologies, I can assure you that I never intended for it to come to this. Then again it rarely is the intended purpose.

Jeff, (sigh)
I was neither calling nor hinting to you or anyone else who
has participated in this thread as a pompous, arrogant, elitist, cumwad - though I "thinketh" thou doth protest too much, but like you who am I to judge.

Anyway I humbly apologize to any and all who were offended
by my remarks, I got carried away in describing my dislike
for people who think they know it all and that respect know one elses opinion but their own. So I'm sorry. Forgive me Jeff for misunderstanding your question, and must confess that I do not know as I was so blown away with its performance when my "mentors" were demoing it. The only thing that I clearly remember is them discussing how clean the response was at 18Hz which I most certainly agree.

So how bout it? group hug or what?

 

[RISUG]

Also I never had sexual relations with that speaker AR1, and I also apolo-highs for use-in a corked amp I may a
mis-ake, I sorwee

 

[RISUG]

Yes Edward, very classy indeed. I was tempted to post Johnson's review as qualification..but I felt that I shoudn't need someone elses viewpoint to qualify my own,
albeit a professionals.

Ironically it was that very review that prompted me to check out the AR1's. As Steve said, very classy, afterall you could have sat back and watched me drown, or it could just be that you wanted to verify my claims which is also to your credit, because afterall this is the internet - home to all sorts of b.s..

Edward I salute you, you are a scholar and a gentleman, and you have all my respect.

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Reese,

It looks like you have the real deal indeed. I won't apologize for my skepticism, but I will admit when it is proven unfounded by facts, which Edward has so graciouusly provided. Kudos indeed. Please understand that this board has had trouble before with threads hijacked by hyperbole over a product combined with thinly veiled potshots at products/manufacturers which are well regarded and have hard scientific measurements to back up the claims made by their legions of fans. My error if I took your post as one made in this type of vein.

Group hug accepted!

 

[RISUG]

Thank you Jeff,
I'm curious, was it that you had never heard of the AR1's?,
I know they are not nearly as popular as most other gear,
but Acoustic Research (then owned by Recoton, now owned by
Audiovox) is a pretty well known name in the industry. Or were my claims of its performance what made you suspicious?. Again, just curious. Not that I blame you either way, because like I said the internet is home to all
kinds of b.s..

One other thing, as I said before I was just poking fun with the SVS/Velo comment, if I were to have a sub/satellite system it would most likely be a Onix/SVS matchup. The product and service quality that these two companies provide is simply above all reproach, and anyone
who doesn't already know that...will, whether they want to
or not.

 

[Jeff Gatie]

I'm not familiar with that particular model and I'm always skeptical of hyperbole until shown otherwise. I'm a New Englander and although not quite as bad as Missourians, we have a ingrained sense of "don't believe it till you see it and even then don't believe it". Couple that with a scientist's neverending quest for facts backed up by experimental results and I guess you had no chance with me regardless of how you presented it:b . Oh well, all is good now.

 

[RISUG]

Thanks Jeff,
all is well indeed.

 

[Reginald Trent]

Perhaps, you do have the real deal. However, I still remain skeptical. Just as those who aren't familar with SVS subs might be skeptical of this. http://www.hometheatersound.com/equi...2531pcplus.htm

 

[Seth_L]

I'm sorry, but 100dB at 20Hz isn't something to get all that excited about. When you can push 115dB plus at the seat we'll talk. Until then keep arguing with the SVS lovers.

 

[RISUG]

Reginald,

Fair enough, there's nothing wrong with that, we're all entitled to express how we feel and what we think. I appreciate your viewpoint, and you're right, some people need to witness things first hand regardless of literature,
I was only relating what I experience with the AR1's, though it is not incumbent on you to take my word for it.


Seth,

Heh, you'll have to forgive me for being but a mere commoner, I've no doubt that for many 100db at 20Hz is but a paltry sum at best, and no I don't suppose the AR1's can push 115db plus "at the seat", so I figure we'll never get to have that "talk" - mayhap, the sun will rise tomorrow.

 

[Brett DiMichele]

SVS Rules!

 

[RISUG]

Yes Brett, SVS does rule.

 

[Edward J M]

I'm sorry, but 100dB at 20Hz isn't something to get all that excited about. When you can push 115dB plus at the seat we'll talk. Until then keep arguing with the SVS lovers.

Hi Seth:

Clearly Dr. Johnson was not pushing for max SPL when he ran the in-room FR sweep.

He was running off an approximate 90 dB baseline. At 1 meter the sub holds 90 dB and is flat to 20 Hz with no signs of impending roll-off. At 4 meters room gain adds 8-9 dB and the sub is showing nearly 100 dB @ 20 Hz.

Since this was just an FR sweep, it can be assumed the AR1 can do far better when pushed harder during actual playback. Nevertheless, measuring 100 dB @ 20 Hz @ 12 feet during just an FR sweep IS impressive when viewed in the context that many so-called subwoofers can't generate ANY appreciable output at 20 Hz even at 1 meter.

While Dr. Johnson didn't provide any SPL peaks during playback, I think his subjective description of the performance of the AR1 speaks for itself.

Considering it's packing twin 15" woofs and 1,000 watts continuous, I wouldn't be surprised if the AR1 really IS capable of pushing 115 dB peaks at the seat during playback. It's not much of a stretch when he uses superlatives like "phenomenal", "WOW!", "panels shimmered from the bass intensity", "no rattling, booming, or clipping", and "this is some product!".

Again, the review is not up to his current standards, which now include a host of other objective measurements, not the least of which is THD measurement at various SPL. Regardless, after reading this review, I'm confident the AR1 is no poseur in the bass department.

Regards,

Ed

 

[Brett DiMichele]

SVS Rules!

 

[SVS-Ron]

Ed said:

"the review is not up to his current standards, which now include a host of other objective measurements, not the least of which is THD measurement at various SPL."

Which is key. He didn't do the objective testing he is doing today that would settle this debate. It's just not there, read into it all you want.

We have the uttmost respect for Dr. Johnson (we didn't ask him to take our first B4-Plus review sample for nothing!), he's among a very small group of testers of late that has an objective test regimen that can really document what's what (really) when it comes to low frequency response.

The AR1s did not get that treatment unfortunately, it would have greatly limited the skepticism that subjective superlatives leave open (which is, I'm sure why he's come up with such a rigorous set of instrumented tests lately).

We strongly believe that even VERY good "power tower" setups (like Reese's AR1s) can greatly benefit from a dedicated subwoofer that is well situated in a room. Look at the instrumented testing of any such speaker and you'll see why. Handling LFE tracks and deep bass from smaller center or surround channels can be yielded much smoother response and cleaner sound down low (remember the human ear is notoriously unreliable when it comes to detecting even relatively large amounts of distortion. And distortion reads just just like clean output on a simple SPL meter, so those THD readings are very important if you are after the best fidelity).

One recent Johnson test put this sort of methodology to a well known brand (but referred here as "Brand X", we just know it's basic parameters, and that it's expensive) of sealed high power small sealed sub that is often lauded for "amazing" performance.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...02-part-2.html

The results showed that while it hit 98.5dB (like you would see with a SPL meter alone) "at 20Hz" it measured 47% THD. The harmonic distortion from that 20Hz tone but read at 60Hz was just 7dB less than the fundamental. The CS-Ultra he tested at the same time had 13% THD at 20Hz...

at 112dB.

13.5dB more output with vastly lower distortion is worth noting. And serves as a warning to what limited reviews can hide. So you can see perhaps why we advocate more thorough testing (like the reference review) is so important in product reviews today. Mind you the small box sub is said to be one of the most popular in the world with accolades very much like what Reese injected into this thread.

I think the the audio world would be a better place if there was a set of powered speakers that can objectively demonstrate clean and flat response at good SPLs to under 20Hz. The AR1's may be them, it's just hard to be certain since we're talking only very limited objective measurements in this review and not the testing that largely eliminates doubt (i.e. distortion limited testing).

The fact is the ARs in question have 1.5 cu-ft sealed volume. 1.5 cu-ft is less than half of a 25-31PCi. If you know subwoofers this is an important limitation. We think the AR woofer has about 5mm of xmax (or 1/3 of a good mid-quality 12" woofer like our ISD or an Adire Shiva). I don't know if the 500 watt amp is rated as continuous 500 watt RMS rating, but it's certain that much of its power is going to be eaten up with equalization needs (the small sealed design makes this mandatory). Again, this is just physics talking, there are no free lunches in the audio world.

In the end, it's academic. Reese is one hell of a happy user and that's all that matters to him. As a subwoofer OEM that prides itself on objective, demonstrable and peer validated third party testing however we'd be remiss not to mention that only when/if you have two speakers (full range, subwoofers, whatever) tested at the same time with the same methodology can you really discount the contribution an "SV Huh" or "Velo-whatever" would add to your system.

No, you can't measure everything, but you can't hear accurate sound that isn't there either. Unless the critics here (I'd guess you could count us but that's besides the point) have "show me" documentation they'll remain skeptics probably. It's sad in a way, advertising hype has replaced reality so frequently that real enthusiasts practically come out of the womb with well-founded skepticism.

At least some examples of SVS and Velo subs have been rigorously tested in objective conditions, with very revealing procedures and instruments which we feel is critical to documenting true performance. The physics (and it all comes down to physics, you just can NOT fool mother nature) in the case of the ARs might indicate that further testing would be needed to convince the skeptics that these (or any) full range speaker can obviate the need for subwoofers (if the deepest and most accurate sound at reference levels is your goal).

Hope that helps a bit on background here Reese. Having been on HTF for several years now lots of the old timers have seen these discussions come and go. A bit of explanation of where the critical eye comes from (I would dispute it's a heard mentality you allude to) was worthwhile regurgitating today. Wad it up and throw it out if it doesn't fit what you discover on your own, but understand that the old RS SPL meter and our very falible human ears can cover up as much as they reveal. Your satisfaction in YOUR speakers is all that matters when it's all said and done. Many others here will just take the "I'm from Missouri (or New England?)... Show Me" approach.

Very respectfully,

Ron

 

[Reginald Trent]

Ron, you pretty much sum up my point which I made in my initial statement.

"Reese Agyepong, no offense but I have trouble believing those towers can produce the same QUALITY of bass as a dedicated Sub like SVS."

"BTW I could be somewhat biased since I own a SVS 16-46pci"
---------------------------

Notice how I emphasized QUALITY. Sure many subs can hit the same range of frequencies. However, it is the QUALITY of sound that separate the men from the boyz.

 

[Brett DiMichele]

SVS Rules!