SVS PCi 25-31 vs HSU VTF3 vs Velodyne CHT-15

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Brian*W, Apr 23, 2004.

  1. Brian*W

    Brian*W Auditioning

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    Hi everyone. Do you guys have any opinions on this selection? I've narrowed it down to these three, which are all similarly priced and I've heard good things from all. Hence making my final decision is a little difficult. THanks for your help!

    Subs in question:
    SVS PCi 25-31
    HSU VTF3
    Velodyne CHT-15
     
  2. Joey_V

    Joey_V Second Unit

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    take the velodyne out - it doesnt compare to either of the two.
     
  3. Greg Haynes

    Greg Haynes Supporting Actor

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    The SVS or the HSU are both amazing products. You can't go wrong with either. I agree that the velodyne needs to be taken off your list. Good luck!
     
  4. John Garcia

    John Garcia Executive Producer

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  5. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    Actually, Nousaine likes the Velo for strong output down to around 30 Hz and low distortion, too. It performed well in his recent multi-sub shoot-out (no hotlink, sorry - others might be able to provide it).

    The CHT-15 won't run with the 25-31PCi in terms of sheer clean output below 30 Hz, but overall it's not a dog or anything. It would be a good buy for
     
  6. john aprile

    john aprile Agent

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  7. Brian*W

    Brian*W Auditioning

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    Thanks for the links to the reviews. I'm very much leaning towards the PCi25-31...The Velodyne does seem like the odd one in the group, but only because of its convenience (I can buy it in store, and not pay duty to ship because I'm in canada) and was just wondering if the active-servo made enough difference to compare to the SVS or HSU.

    The Sound and Vision review says the Velodyne can do 116dB at 62Hz (its max output) and 92dB at 25Hz. Can the 25-31 PCi do that?

    Anyone in Toronto have an SVS I can listen to? [​IMG]
     
  8. steve nn

    steve nn Cinematographer

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    http://members.cox.net/frankcarter/Tom%20Nousaine%20Sub%20Data.htm SVS's first offering.
    __________________________________________________ ________

    I used to own a couple of ct-150's. A good sub for the right price. $350 - $400. It's the lower hz material that makes it falter like Ed states. When I picked up my first 25-31CS+ I noticed that it would take much more than a dual 15" ct Velo setup to equal what one CS+ had to offer spl wise in the lower hz region.

    If it were my choice with a $600 budget I would go with the PCI myself unless you like something about the HSU better.
     
  9. Brian*W

    Brian*W Auditioning

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    steve nn that's a great compilation of subs! The old one doesn't have the current improved driver, so should I expect higher and cleaner output than those figures? (Also it's now 320W BASH vs the 300W, would that make much difference?)
     
  10. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    The only way to tell for sure is to get both products in the same room under identical test conditions.

    I can tell you the old 20-39CS with the original (not ISD) 12" woofer hit 106 dB at 25 Hz in Nousaine's standardized test. The 25-31PCi, in addition to having the better ISD woofer, also is tuned to 25 Hz, which optimizes its output capability at that frequency.

    Conservatively, with the better woofer and optimized tune point, the current production 25-31PCi should better the 25 Hz rating of the old 20-39CS by about 3 dB, placing it around 109 dB at 25 Hz in Nousaine's room. If you want confirmation of this, I would certainly encourage you to check with Tom V at SVS.

    The maximum output value at 62 Hz is not terribly relevant IMO. The bandwidth that matters most for serious subwoofer performance is 20-40 Hz IMO.
     
  11. steve nn

    steve nn Cinematographer

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    steve nn that's a great compilation of subs! The old one doesn't have the current improved driver, so should I expect higher and cleaner output than those figures? (Also it's now 320W BASH vs the 300W, would that make much difference?)
    __________________________________________________ _________

    Good question Brian. I have had a few conversations with Velodyne in regards. What they stated to me was that they are basically the same sub except for the front grill.(ct-150 V old CHT 15") Another member here on the Forum who had done some work for Velodyne I think, said that the driver was gyroide a little differently. I remember having some minor problems with one of my ct amps and Velodyne sent me a new CHT amp to replace my old one. Both subs took the same calibration settings afterwards.

    From the list in my previous post I would still choose the CHT 15" over the ct 150 though. It appears as though it has a couple db advantage.

    If Velodyne has come out with a new and improved CHT 15"er I would expect a little more. A more sensitive driver coupled with more wattage will equal better performance. I can't imagine Velodyne degreasing.

    It has been a while since I have checked but I noticed the old 15" CHT has been discontinued at some B&M. Has the new one made it's debut then?
     
  12. john aprile

    john aprile Agent

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    Brian*W

    Any SVS to Canada with shipping, taxes, UPS and the exchange rate is going to be almost double in price.

    The question is… Is the SVS performance double that of the local CHT15?

    I think not.

    Future Shop floor model and a 30 day refund $750. Out the door.

    Now, if 25Hz At 92 db is not enough, you may have a problem.

    The only time you’re going to play over 100db is when a rush is needed, or to impress the friends.

    These are not your average listening levels for any length of time...fun for awhile ,but the novelty wears off.
     
  13. Phil Iturralde

    Phil Iturralde Screenwriter

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    I can easily reach REFERENCE LEVEL Fast LFE SPL Peaks (115 dB+) @ my 'sweet spot' (approx. 12' from my SVS) in my 20' x 30' HT/family room!!! I did that once (my brother egged me on) and my neighbor, about 50' away from my SVS corner to his duplex back wall (w/fruit trees inbetween) walk around half a block to let me know that he could feel it too!!! :b

    Phil
     
  14. john aprile

    john aprile Agent

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    CHT 15 CURRENT SENSING SERVO = 50%less distortion.

    I can also hear/feel a trucks low rumble from inside the house at 80 feet away with the doors and windows closed ,how accurate and distortion free is that? [​IMG]

    I own the CHT 15 in a 30'x32'room ,It certainly loosens my stools [​IMG]...When need be ,at half the price in Canada plus local repairs.... it's a no brainer.
     
  15. steve nn

    steve nn Cinematographer

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    After having experienced both. It would be a no brainer for me. I would go for the SVS in a hart beat. The added $$ would be $$ well spent imo. The higher spl in the lower region adds so much to the HT experience that I could never settle for less after experiencing what SVS brings to the table.

    The question is… Is the SVS performance double that of the local CHT15?
    __________________________________________________ ________

    It would be a easy decision if I had to make it. Yes the SVS would be worth it and it brings far more to the table than what many realise. I used to be one of the sceptics.

    On the first fly-by scene in SW II I could hit 111 db's with my dual ct-150's. With one 25-31CS+ I could hit the same.(30 hz scene basically) As the freqs get lower the spread grows wider and wider. It was very noticeable. I used to have a sheet laying around here with all the measurements but it has been buried some where. This is only one aspect of where the SVS will pull away from the ct. The SVS is much faster and more tone capable. How can I say it with out saying it just does it all much better.

    If it's affordable and great bass is a premium, then what SVS has to offer is money well spent imo. Even if I did live in Canada [​IMG]

    EDIT> John I understand your reasoning and I used to feal the same. Nothing wrong with having a CHT-15. It is just not the question that was asked.[​IMG]
     
  16. john aprile

    john aprile Agent

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    I'm familiar with the PB2+ great sub at $1250 US , that's almost $2500 CDN.

    Is it worth it for me...NO!

    Again,for $700 CDN. I GET 85/90% performance from the CHT 15 and AGAIN I don't need 120db for movies.

    If I want a cheap thrill and/or impress my friends at 110db it delivers that , however for how long can you sustain such volumes?...If you're a bass head then it's never enough. [​IMG]

    BTW... prescription drugs in Canada are 80% cheaper than in the US.Perhaps if there was a balance in ratio SVS might be an alternative...not at double the price for a 10/15% improvement. [​IMG] And at the risk of repetion...THE NOVELTY WEARS OFF , UNLESS YOU'RE....
     
  17. Joey_V

    Joey_V Second Unit

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    i think it doubles the performance - when u take into account the fact that the svs has much lower distortion.

    if the svs can hit 5-6db higher than the cht-15... and i know it can easily do that below 25hz and around the same above 25hz... then it would take TWO colocated cht-15 to equal the output of 1 svs 25-31ci (or 22-31PCi).

    and it is not about being able to sustain the volumes - the svs is cleaner and has a flatter response. imagine the cht-15 hits 116 at 62 and 92 at 25hz... what is that?? there is about a 25db difference... meaning that the sub prefers to amplify bass around 60hz 250-500 times louder than bass at 25hz!
     
  18. Brian*W

    Brian*W Auditioning

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    John you do bring up very valid points. As you point out, getting a local CHT-15 would definitely be a lot easier- no duty, shipping, exchange rate. However, I am very much so a bass head, and I dream every day of having a couple B4-Pluses in my house (after seeing a 130dB test measurement)! At my computer, I have a set of Z-680s (rated 114dB max) and added another sub....still don't have enough bass. That's a different kind of bass though, a low quality, distortion-riddled kind, so I'm very much looking forward to a 'real' subwoofer, and a powerful one. I treat heavy bass as a full body massage [​IMG]

    From what I gather, the SVS' distortion levels are lower than the CHT-15? Not to mention equal to the sonic power of two of those(quite important for a bass head)? I read in either another thread or forum that some SVS customers from Canada paid just around double the numerical original price, after shipping/brokerage/tax/exchange. Can anyone confirm this?

    This forum is great, thanks guys!
     
  19. Joey_V

    Joey_V Second Unit

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    found this:

    ---

    I bought some B-stock SVS (Sampson S1000 and CS+ 20-39). The combination of the two was $840 US. The direct shipping quote for the two units was $99.35 US.

    It was shipped by UPS to Alberta (so no PST).

    For the Sampson there was some duty because it is manufactured overseas (4.5%).

    The UPS sheet broke down as follows:

    Duty amount $28.17
    Customs GST $98.85
    Entry Prep Fee $59.55
    Disbursement Fee $5.85
    Brokerage GST $4.58
    CA COD Surcharge $4.25
    COD GST $0.30

    Total $201.55 CDN

    When you add in the initial cost of shipping it cost about $340 CDN to be shipped.

    Your total will be slightly different because you are only having one product delivered and you will pay no duty, but unless you are in Alberta you will also have to pay PST.

    Hope that helps.

    BTW, as you have probably already heard, this subwoofer is amazing and I don't regret the dollars spent on this system. I went with the separate amp and subwoofer package because it was the same price as the 20-39 PCi and offered upgradeability to a two-sub system when I move into a house with a dedicated HT room. My B-stock was in perfect condition. Haven't had a single problem with it. If you want B-stock, you will have to frequent the site regularly and pounce upon any deals that show up.
    ----

    there u go... it doesnt cost a lot - but u better get the sub that u want, maybe even OVER-sub yourself, because returning it for a bigger better one would be a pain!

    if i were u, go for the 25-31+!!! if u have the extra cash that is.. 22-31 or 20-39 is awesome enough!!

    good luck. [​IMG]
     
  20. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    What you guys are getting at is what Nousaine refers to as "bandwidth uniformity". The ability of the subwoofer to maintain a linear output across the entire frequency spectrum.

    Nousaine's output chart of the Velo CHT-15 clearly shows a fairly uniform distortion-limited output in the 30-60 Hz bandwidth. Below 30 Hz, the Velo falls off rapidly in distortion limited output.

    Two things need to be considered when evaluating the Velo's performance: 1) On an absolute scale, the 92 dB score is just "OK" (yes it won that particular comparo, but the number is nothing to write home about). 2) There is a 16 dB difference between the 25 Hz and 32 Hz scores - that is just huge because the dB scale is log10.

    If the 25-31PCi can hit 109 dB @ 25 Hz @ 10% THD in Nousaine's standardized test, that is a whopping 17 dB higher than the Velo. It would require several Velo's to generate the same clean output at 25 Hz. And the difference between the 25 Hz and 32 Hz scores for the SVS would be closer (about 8-10 dB and not 16 dB like the Velo). Overall, the SVS scores much higher in the 25 Hz test on an absolute scale, and also scores much higher in 25-50 Hz bandwidth uniformity.

    At 30 Hz and above, you can expect things to get much closer to parity between the SVS and the Velo. The SVS would likely still retain an edge at most frequencies in the 32-62 Hz bandwidth, but it wouldn't be a crushing difference like it is at 25 Hz. It would likely lose the 62 Hz frequency, but that is of little consequence in the real world as most big bass hits occur in the 20-40 Hz region.

    Like I said above, the big Velo is a good value in the
     

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