SVS PB10-ISD Subwoofer Test & Review (1 Viewer)

[Tom Vodhanel]

Hi Scott,

>>>This person obviously has a mission to badger SvS

 

[frank manrique]

quote:
__________________________________________________ ______

For a real fun demo...we run the same Nemo scene with a pair of stacked B12-plus/4 subs I have in my corner...
__________________________________________________ ______

...and you guys survived the experience?!...

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."

 

[Jonas_K]

Edward, thanks alot for a very nice review.

I am very much thinking of ordering one but I am a bit uncertain if it would be worth the overhead cost to import a budgetsub to sweden or if you really have to move up to the larger models to make it worth it.

The cost for this sub when arriving in sweden would equal the sum I would have to pay for the following subs at home,
B&W ASW 600
Infinity Beta SW12
Yamaha SW800
how would you compare the SVS to these. Will it still be worth importing the SVS ? Cause I really want the best overall movie sub for the lowest price

 

[Edward J M]

I've heard the B&W ASW600 and wasn't too impressed with it. I've never heard that Yamaha subwoofer. I've heard many Infinity subs over the years (overall just so-so, on par with brick and mortar offerings from Polk and the lower Klipsch and Velo lines), but the model numbers change so quickly I can't say definitively I demoed the Beta SW12.

You might want to check Tom Nousaine's (noted S&V reviewer) data base. He tests subwoofers inside - in a 7500 ft3 room at 2 meters, and limits THD to 10%. I did a quick glance and found the B&W ASW600 had an average output of: 97.0 dB @ 10% distortion from 25-62 Hz @ 2 meters. The PB10-ISD easily bettered (more like crushed) that performance outside with no boundary reinforcement.

I think the STF-2 is easily the second best $400 subwoofer on the market, if that helps any. You might want to email Tom V directly; he has an astonishing amount of data at his fingertips on how various subwoofers performed, and might be able to shed more light on those other models. It's probably safe to say the best of the current crop of $400 class competitive subwoofers bit the dust in the SVS R/D labs during the PB10-ISD development period. SVS didn't release the PB10-ISD to be just on par with the competition; the intention was to literally create a new class of performance at this price point, and they've clearly accomplished just that.

 

[alan*T]

I was comparing the PB2U and PB10-ISD review (done by the same person)
PB10-ISD
20 Hz: 93.9 dB (8.0 % - amplifier limited)
22 Hz: 96.9 dB (2.7 % - amplifier limited)
25 Hz: 102.2 dB
40 Hz: 105.8 dB
50 Hz: 106.7 dB


PB2U
20 Hz Tune 10% THD Ground Plane 2M:
20 Hz: 102.8 dB (9.4% THD amp limited)
22 Hz: 104.9 dB (7.7% THD amp limited)
25 Hz: 106 dB (6.2% THD amp limited)
40 Hz: 113.1 dB
50 Hz: 112.2 dB

and I noted that the 10% ground plane distortion value of the PB10-ISD is not much lower. In fact if you have 2 colocated PB10-ISDs you would have comparable output.... outperforming the PB2U at 25 and 50 hertz but weaker at lower frequencies.

one cost like US$800 and the other cost like US$1800.. (pre order prices)

Considering the PB2U have BIGGER AMP, BIGGER CABINET SPACE, BIGGER DRIVERS, BETTER DRIVERS I would think PB2U would measure significantly louder at 10% distortion as compared to dual PB10-ISDs.


I must be missing something. So what is it?

 

[EdNichols]

Ed,

I was looking at the frequency response on the PB10-ISD in your report which shows 105DB from 20-80 hz. Just out of curiosity I looked at the graph of the PB12-ISD on the SVS web site which shows 95db from 20-80hz and the PB12/2 which shows 100db in the same frequency. Did I mis-interpret the charts or is the PB10 really 5 db and 10 db louder than the larger models?

 

[Edward J M]

You aren't missing anything, Alan. That is how the two products tested out, with respect to distortion limited output. Feel free to check with Tom V and confirm my PB12-Ultra/2 THD data is valid.

One thing you aren't considering is the dynamic output capability of the PB12/Ultra/2 in the 20 hz tune. It averaged 116-118 dB across the operating bandwidth before it started to exhibit compression. It would take roughly four PB10-ISDs to match the dynamic output capability of the PB12-Ultra/2 in the 20 Hz tune.

If you did buy four PB10-ISDs for $1900 (I'm guessing $425 final price plus shipping) and piled them all in the corner, the overall output capability would match a PB12-Ultra/2 in the 20 Hz tune AND they would exhibit lower distortion, too.

You are discovering what I've been saying all along. The PB10-ISD is a ground breaking subwoofer with respect to bandwidth linearity, distortion limited output, and dynamic output. A perfect subwoofer would have the same distortion limited output across its entire operating bandwidth, and this would ALSO represent its dynamic compression limit. The PB10-ISD almost perfectly exhibits this characteristic at 25 Hz and above. It does fall short at 20-22 Hz, but its performance there is still exceptional.

In this regard (as I have stated several times) it is SVS' best work to date, and it is also their best performance value. If space and aesthetics and hook-up ease were not a consideration (and they always are), four PB10-ISDs will equal a PB12-Ultra/2 (in the 20 hz tune) with respect to dynamic output, and comfortably exceed it with respect to distortion limited output. This subwoofer is THAT good.

Regards,

Ed

 

[Edward J M]

Hi Ed:

SVS doesn't show the dynamic compression limits on their FR graphs. I think they test at around 95 dB as a baseline for all subwoofers. I know that they DO perform dynamic compression testing, they just don't show it on the website.

I'm sure Tom V would be happy to tell you what the dynamic compression limit is for any of their products.

For the PB10-ISD its about 104 dB, where I noticed some minor compression setting in around 20 Hz. My chart is a combination of both the FR and the dynamic compression limit, whereas SVS' is not.

Regards,

Ed

 

[alan*T]

Edward,

thanks for the informative reply. But I was not doubting you. I just want to know in what way the PB2U is better than dual PB10 because I bought the PB2U

I was considering PB2U or the dual PC+. Actually the dual PC+ can probably perform equal or better the PB2U at a lower cost but there is no way I can convince my wife to accept the twin towers. Like what you said, 4 PB12s will be MUCH harder to colocate than one PB2U.

Actually I am not very well-versed in subwoofers... (PB2U is my first sub) but all your reviews are very informative as they do contain a lot of objective data.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

Hi Alan,

With 4 PB10s, you'd have more air moving capabilities from the driver, more port area(with the PB12-ultra/2 set to 20hz extension),more enclosure volume and more amp power. So it only makes sense that they would compare favoraby to a single PB12-ultra/2.

Tom V.
SVS

 

[Edward J M]

Hi Alan:

Yes, clearly where the PB12-Ultra/2 buries even dual PB10-ISD would be in dynamic output.

When you consider the PB12-Ultra/2 is a single enclosure with "only" two 12" woofers and three 4" flared vents, it's pretty remarkable what it is capable of in terms of both dynamic output and low distortion.

Four PB10-ISDs would weigh 240 pounds, be 36" x 30" x 21", have four woofers, four 3" vents, four amplifiers, and require four outlets. All just to equal the dynamic output of one PB12-Ultra/2 in the 20 Hz tune (and yes, comfortably exceed it in terms of distortion limited output).

In that light, it's kind of a silly comparison, but I'll tell ya what, I could easily envision a PB10-ISD/4 on the horizon with a 1200 watt amp and this basic enclosure size and venting arrangement (equivalent to four separate cabinets) for "well" under $2,000. If you had the space......man that sub would perform like few other on the planet - it would be uncanny.

 

[David K.]

would it be safe to stack the pb 10's?

 

[Edward J M]

Sure, especially with the six soft rubber feet. The enclosure is certainly strong enough; I've laid over the cabinet of mine (to adjust amp controls and make connections, etc.) and I weigh 220.

Someone is gonna try this soon (a PB10-ISD/4), I just know it....people have already ordered dual PB10-ISDs; it's just a matter of time. I'm half tempted myself, just to experience it first hand.

 

[SVS-Ron]

David,

Ed can recommend that, but from the OEM perspective I would rather not see 4 on top of each other. Two on two (side by side)would be fine I would think. A 60lb sub falling off the top of a linear stack of four would crush Fluffy the cat in short order.

Stacked in "quad" fasion it'd be one heck of a lethal system certainly. Try one of each color that way ;^)

Ron

 

[Edward J M]

Yes, Ron - clearly 2x2 is the preferred method - as my cabinet size of 36x30x21 implied. A single stack of four would be unwise - for Fluffy anyway. The 2x2 config would be quite stable.

 

[Aaron Waters]

hehe

time to make a new flash video w/ Fluffy

 

[Mark Seaton]

Ed wrote:


One nitpick here Ed-

This is similar to saying the perfect amplifier should double it's maximum power into each halving of the load impedance. In reality, if an amplifier measures this way, I guarantee you that one section of the amplifier is significantly limiting another. In other words, all components are not operating at maximum potential. That is a design decision involving many factors, not the least of which is cost. The same applies to subwoofers. The only way the distortion limit of a subwoofer will remain constant as frequency rises is due to amplifier limiting. Inherently a given driver will have a rising maximum dynamic output with respect to frequency. You noted yourself that the amplifier limits the output at some low frequencies. The point is only that an amplifier with more power that is justified for the lowest frequencies is not always wasted if there are cases where its benefits can be put to use. In no way to I mean to discount the impressive performance of the PB10, but rather just put the stated notion of distortion limited output in perspective. The perfect subwoofer would never distort or run out of headroom. We are still searching for those elusive perfect components.

Best Regards,

 

[Jack Gilvey]

"Nice review" may seem insultingly reserved, but Ed's work just keeps getting better...really sorry I missed the trip upstate. Nice review.

 

[MalluS]

Folks: I would like a suggestion for a subwoofer that is being asked in the thread "Suggestions for SubWoofer" (cannot link to that thread as I am new to the forum and there is a restriction until I get to 15 posts)
Could someone please take some time out to answer me over there. I am looking at this sub as one of top contendors.

 

[Edward J M]

I hear you, Mark. I suppose "perfect" was a poor choice of word for anything but a theoretical sense. In the real world, acknowledging that subwoofers do distort and do have dynamic limits, having the 10% distortion limited output and the dynamic output limit maintain parity over such a broad bandwidth (like the PB10-ISD does from 25-80 Hz) definitely has audible performance benefits. I haven't tested a subwoofer yet that comes closer to what I would call "perfect" in this real world sense. It's very hard to drive this subwoofer into any sort of audible distortion under actual use, because even at its dynamic limits, its distortion components remain inaudible with music/movie program material. And if you try to overload it with sines in the 20-22 Hz region, the amp simply limits out to hold THD to within 3-8%. Pretty bulletproof....

Maybe it would be neat to note the disparity between the distortion limited output and the dynamic output limit and graph it over the operating bandwidth. That would certainly graphically demonstrate what we've been discussing.

Anyway, feel free to PM me at any time to exchange data or discuss methodology - our interactions are always a positive learning experience for me.

Jack - too bad you missed the trip upstate; it was fun testing the latest SVS product, and I hope you get your PB10-ISD soon.

I'm off for the archery opener in upstate NY. While I will be popping in and out occasionally over the next four days, I hereby leave the general management of this thread in the capable hands of Ron/Tom and Robb in my absence.

Warmest Regards,

Ed