svs or hsu subwoofer? (1 Viewer)

[Mike^S]

Lyle_E,

The KSW-12 is not a very good subwoofer IMO. It doesn't go very deep and most reviews I have seen say it's a bit boomy. If you can push your budget up to about $400-$500 you would be much happier with a HSU STF-2 or a SVS PB10.

 

[martyTeboe]

........I'm so confused.

But I do believe that I've made up my mind on which sub to purchase. I'm going with the 20-39PC-Plus 871.34, shipped.

I feel good about the fact that I can return it, should the need arise. Thanks to all for your input.

marty

 

[mikeEB]

Excellent choice...I don't think you'll be disappointed. Have fun with your new toy.

M i k e

 

[AlanZ]

Congrats, Marty.....excellent choice

 

[paul clipsel]

Lets debunk a rumor or two before fantasy and reality blur.
Not once have I ever said that all objective data is useless info to be discounted at all costs. It seems the objective police are on their horses trying to round up story that has not been discussed at any stage (by me anyhow). It also seems that listening and directly comparing is of absolutely no importance in making the 'final choice', at least if you follow the 'objective data only' philosophy of buying audio. Thats where I totally disagree, because as far as I am aware the whole point of audio is 'listening'.

Ed
It should however be noted that there is a big difference between just numbers and consistent methodically taken measurement data (v-rare). No one could or is arguing that such data is not useful in narrowing down to a group of potential contenders, but its certainly not the best method for your 'final choice'. Thats because your final choice is always going to be a personal one. Like it or not audio reproduction is 'not perfect' and is mostly in the ear of the beholder, and as such audio like all art is a subjective issue. Ask 100 people to participate in blind testing and you will soon see just how subjective audio actually is. The placebo effect of knowing what your listening to can do strange things to the end result, some people call this a 'one sided blindness. This is the exact reason why designers dance around the Lilly pond of balance, appealing to their buyers preferred sound and the ultimate theory. Ever wonder why we don't have clones of speakers running ruler flat 20Hz-20kHz, or why women and men differ in what biases they like. Its all in the way we hear as individuals, we are not clones of some perfect listening device you read about in the theory class. Oh for the existence of such a perfect human species.



PC

 

[Robb Roy]

I don't see where anyone said that. Personally, I've stated if you don't like a sub, no matter how it measures objectively, you shouldn't keep it. Jack has said there's any number of reasons why a sub may be your favorite. I *am* saying that since we can't possibly do side-by-side auditions of every last subwoofer on the planet, objective data is the logical place to *start* (as opposed to finish, which, again, wouldn't make sense if the more accurate sub is not to your liking).

-Robb

 

[Craig Chase]

Paul - You make some pretty good points. One thing, though... a blind test with, say, 12 people, will be MUCH more uniform as to what is "best" than 12 people staring at the speakers.

The most fun in a blind test is when Mr. "My speakers are the best" picks another brand than his own, we know THAT does not happen with most guys when they can SEE the speakers.

Ed - Yep, if a subwoofer does not measure well, it BETTER not sound good to you ...

And yes, once the subwoofers being compared have shown good performance numbers, THEN a blind test is warranted.

 

[paul clipsel]

I have often said that I found the VTF-3MK2 is the best sounding subwoofer 'for me'. I didn't say that its the best for 'you' or 'anyone else', and saying otherwise is simply not correct. I will perhaps say its worth a listen but as I often mention people should take opinions with a grain of salt and listen and weigh up the pro's and con's for yourself, because only 'you' can decide that, not me or a set of numbers.

PC

 

[paul clipsel]

Craig I followed with interest your posts about DBT and I think it sorts out the men from the mice. I also agree that speakers are always going to invoke a bigger group result variance than that of limited bandwidth bass reproduction. But make no mistake the tonality and definition of a good bass recording really can be the story teller to the window of what subwoofer works and what doesn't. Because of the varying textures, complexities and the delicacies contained within its the 'use of music' that separates subwoofers.

Besides the fact that I find most modern movies a total insult to your intelligence, I do find that just about any subwoofer can do loud gunfire, mortar shells and train wreaks without 'accuracy or truth' ever being called into question. Talking about accuracy I wonder just how many times (on an action movie) the word distortion has comes into question on the movies sound mix (I guess its all part of the sound effects magic).

I have no problem in using objective data to get me to the final two or three subwoofers, which then can be sorted out with totally blind listening comparisons. If the end aim is sound quality is it worth spending more for audio gear if you can't hear the difference? Not in my opinion but perhaps bragging rights are motivation enough for some? As always YMMV.

PC

 

[Robb Roy]

Paul,

You also stated in the Krix thread:



If I misread either of these threads, I apologize for that as well.

Objective data can tell you more about how a subwoofer sounds than someone's opinion, and is the smart place to start shopping when it comes to a subwoofer’s performance.

-Robb

 

[paul clipsel]

Robb with all good intentions your drawing at straws when of course Ed has not recorded data on the VTF-3MK2 so I was not talking objective data. Comparing data from different sources is (in most cases) about as useful as a parachute without a rip cord. In actual fact it was little more than a brief shot at the price relationship of a retail imported B&M sub vs a direct market product. Holy smoke I doubt we even have a Krix sub owner on the forum so I could see little harm in the value comparison. If you dare to dig a little deeper and goggle some reviews you will see that in its country of origin the sub sells for $670-$770 depending on finish.

Nothing so sinister in that comment that would make me fall into the objective data only trap.
I am a music lover first and foremost, and technology is only a means to please me, its not the attraction. I only relax with music going and it can change my mood from happy to sad to romantic to angry, all with the push of the track selection button. Its the greatest pleasure I get besides the obvious male rooster thing that no male can ever get enough of.

In the $500 thread its an personal opinion (take, leave or don't read). I own the Ascends and an STF-2 in my bedroom setup and of course I wouldn't have purchased either Hsu if I didn't do the listening comparisons in and around that price range. Its my opinion that I choose the best sounding subwoofers for the price although I have friends who totally disagree as they chose to own subs like the PB12-ISD, 20-39PC-Plus, UFW10, PB10 and VTF-2. They have all heard my system and I have heard theirs. I am certainly not going to be telling them they are wrong and that I am right (and visa versa). I think we have a few uptight audio theologists that would like to simplify the buyers selection process and explain the rhyme and reason for everything that we hear, but in the end its mostly a subjective decision because perfection in audio is a pipe dream of epic proportions. The best you can do is choose what sounds best to you.

PC

 

[Robb Roy]

Paul,

Believe me, there is no way I would accuse you of being in the "objective data only" group of thinkers (if I wanted to "trap" you I'd ask if you agree both the SVS and Hsu subs mentioned as alternatives to the Klipsch would be superior, and why). As much as I take issue with what I see as twisting of words and flawed logic, I'm instead going to apologize for singling you out in my posts. I let my frustration with people who brag about performance when it's convenient for them and discount it when it's not boil over when I saw what appears to have been you doing that (I expect it from the marketing people). That apology is sincere.

I'll leave it with this: it *is* possible to *objectively* measure the best subwoofer when it comes to accuracy (and all the flowery marketing speak in the world doesn't change that fact). It is not possible to find out if you prefer the sound of a less accurate sub other than with experimentation. The idea of auditioning every subwoofer on the planet is not realistic, so the solution is to logically decide where to start your search. As I don't find it a coincidence that people like the subwoofers that measure the best more often than those that don't, it only makes sense to start your auditions with those subwoofers that measure the best.

-Robb

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Ed...good post.


Yup...your favorite may not be the best. That's ok, too.

 

[steve nn]

Yup...your favorite may not be the best. That's ok, too.
__________________________________________________ _

Quite a conversation guys. I can see the same conversation displayed 20 years down the road.

Maybe it boils down to when a subs performance numbers attain a certain measure/threshold of performance, that's when the subjective personal tastes come into influencing the auditioner more strongly??

I'm going to break out of my shell and give the Maestro a demo as a 2nt option in the main. With Ed's upcoming review in regards to the Maestro, I'll be very interested to see how his numbers coincide with my perception of the Maestro's performance.

 

[Ilkka R]

What are your thoughts about Meastro? How is it doing against PB12-Ultra/2?

 

[Lyle_E]

Bobby J, I hope this thread was informative to you as it was me.. Thanks everyone

A few final question before I pull the trigger and test drive an SVS (which from reading so far I wont have a problem with) yes because i cant wait and I am impatient, I am going to purchase a PB12 ISD...

Define "B stock" subs from svs what is the difference

20-39PCi vs PB12 ISD what are the advantages and disadvantages between the two? opinions?

ps the KSW 12 is not for me in this little room...

16 x 10.5 x 8

 

[Robb Roy]

Lyle_E,

They are very close. The 20-39PCi will dig just a tad deeper than the PB12-ISD, but the PB12-ISD will have a bit more headroom in the upper bass frequencies. At least that's how they measure last I heard Ron compare them.

I don't know all the reasons a sub winds up B stock, but I believe the most common is someone returning one for a different model (getting a bigger sub, going to a box, what-have-you) within their 45 day return window. I do know SVS won't sell a sub as B stock that is not 100% functional.

-Robb

 

[steve nn]

A few final question before I pull the trigger and test drive an SVS (which from reading so far I wont have a problem with) yes because i cant wait and I am impatient, I am going to purchase a PB12 ISD...
__________________________________________________ ___

I cant imagine you not really liking it. Congrats on your decision Lyle.

B-Stock implies it could have a minor blemish or something of that nature. It could also be a perfect condition unit that one just decided to return. What ever the case, if you get in touch with SVS they will let you know the scoop on the unit your interested in. It might and probably wont be in the B-Stock section when you return though. You can always purchase and then cancel if your inclined after speaking with SVS about the unit also.

>>>What are your thoughts about Maestro? How is it doing against PB12-Ultra/2?

 

[WayneO]

The cylinder has smaller footprint and easier to move around and place. Box can be an end-table. Cylinder is tuned lower(20 vs.25hz) and the box will have a little higher output becasue of this(1-2dB). I'd get the 20-39 because many movies nowadays really low bass(

 

[Robb Roy]

Just a minor correction: the PB12-ISD is tuned to 22 Hz, making the difference between the two even smaller.

-Robb