SVS for music??? (1 Viewer)

[Walt N]

Bob, I heard them in a friends home and they were placed well. Don't get me wrong, they knocked my socks off even more than my old RTR Series 3's which had the most bass I'd heard in a tower speaker up to that point. FWIW I've been playing drums and bass guitar for 30 years and used to do it live on the road, so I've got a good idea of what realistic bass sounds like to me, but not necessarily to anyone else. What doesn't sound realistic to me is bass that's too constricted/controlled sounding ie. Sunfire or small Velo type bass. I like it a bit more ambient with some overhang. It's a personal thing just like the tuning of a bass drum. No "right" answer here. If I'm not mistaken, Brian Cheney recommends placement up to within a few inches of a back wall.

 

[Bob_A]

I am not saying that a good external sub can't do bass well for music...there's just something about near full range response from each main channel which I really like. And having the manufacturer control the entire process is a big plus in my book.

 

[John Kotches]

Bob,

I'm sorry, but "added power handling" has absolutely nothing to do with a speakers being of bipolar design.

The last I checked, speakers from Wisdom Audio, VMPS, Wilson Audio and quite a few others are capable of handling enormous power input. None of these are bipolar designs.

Regards,

 

[Bob_A]

I never said that a non-bipolar speaker cannot handle a lot of power. And those speakers you mentioned, how much do they cost?

Def Tech bp30: 20-500 watts

Def Tech clr2000: 20-350 Watts

Same drivers. Both in d'appolito array. One bipolar, one direct radiating.

 

[Walt N]

Anthony that's cool, my only point was that a lot of body cavity felt slam comes in around 100Hz or so and for sure your RMII's are capable of delivering much more of that sternum rattling fun stuff than your nOrhs were.

 

[Bob_A]

Walt, remember that Anthony still has his external subs...and he has compared the sound with and without the external subwoofers. I think it is clear that the RM2's are the choice for him...for highs, mids, and lows.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>Walt,
Believe me I tried everthing as far as crossover points, location ,etc. I drove Tom V crazy for months to get the best performance from my subs. My mains were nOrh marble 7's which even though are no bass masters play well below 60Hz.
Oh yes, remember it well
Anthony is very passionate about his system...I didn't keep count,but I'm guessing 100 emails total...?
Anyway, debating vmps,svs,hsu,ect and what one person might prefer in their room is like debating who the better poet is...Plath,whitman,dr suess,frost...who's to say!(how can you tell someone they shouldn't prefer one to the other?)
Anthony liked svs,and he's found something he likes even better now...so that can't be a bad thing. I've never heard vmps and doubt I'll ever have the chance for a home audition at their prices(I could never afford a 7 channel vmps system)...but they are highly regarded by many astute A/V professionals. Brian and I have butted heads in the past...but I would like to think we bumped into one another on a bad day for both of us...and that there is some mutual respect for what each company is trying to provide to the consumer now.
BTW Anthony, I'm glad we have bob translating/repeating every post you make...or else we would never have any idea of what you are trying to say...
TV

 

[Bob_A]

VMPS has main channel, center channel, surround speakers, and subwoofers which are very reasonably priced, even compared to other online vendors.
Link Removed
Mr. Cheney had once done a price/cost breakdown for some of his products at audioasylum...apparently, VMPS has very slim profit margins. The same can be said about nOrh, as Mr. Barnes also did a price/cost breakdown.
Here is information about two of their highly regarded subwoofers.
The New Original Subwoofer
12” polycone active and 15” passive Subwoofer in lowboy round corner cabinet. 20Hz to 250Hz, lite oak, dark oak finishes. 20x27x17” (HxWxD) 95 lbs. Power Handling: 200W, Impedance: 8 Ohms
KIT w/cabinet $409ea
KIT w/o cabinet $175ea
Assembled $499ea
Shipping in USA (48 states) FREE
OPTIONS: The Megawoofer, stacked magnet (80oz) hi-power woven carbon fiber active woofer, increases power handling to 300W and lowers cutoff frequency to 19Hz; Dual voicecoil $20; satin black finish $40
__________________________________________________ _________
New Larger Subwoofer
12” polycone active, 15” polycone active, 15” passive large lowboy round corner cabinet Subwoofer, 17Hz to 250Hz, lite oak, dark oak finishes Power Handling 350W, Impedance 4 Ohms (8 Ohms on special order)
KIT w/cabinet $579ea
KIT w/o cabinet $329ea
Assembled $699ea
Shipping in USA (48 states) FREE
OPTIONS: Megawoofers, stacked magnet (80oz) 12” woven carbon fiber and 15" black poly active woofers, increase power handling to 600W $70ea additional. Piano black finish $40 additional. Soundcoat $75 per cabinet. Dual voice option not necessary since two woofers can be separated and one channel fed to each (dual 8 Ohm loads)
Manufacturer’s note: the highest output (over 115dB/1m at 20Hz) subwoofer available. Megawoofers highly recommended for increased power handling, speed (double sized motor) and definition.

 

[Gil D]

Anthony,

How did you come across VMPS? They have only one dealer and they are located in DC. Did you build the RM3 kit or buy them assembled.

What traits do these speakers have that you like over other speakers under $5K.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>Manufacturer’s note: the highest output (over 115dB/1m at 20Hz) subwoofer available. Megawoofers highly recommended for increased power handling, speed (double sized motor) and definition.

 

[Bob_A]

Mr. Cheney was just pointing out that this is his highest output subwoofer. So if people want the best external sub from VMPS, I guess the larger sub would be it.

 

[John Kotches]

Bob,

Let's follow through the posts once more:

GregBr said this:

Added power handling, added spaciousness in sound, possibly even added depth to sound.

How does being a bipolar speaker increase its ability to handle power input? The answer is that the radiation pattern of a speaker has literally zero to do with its radiation patterns, or its ability to handle power input.

The other speakers cited were examples of speakers that are rated to handle very high levels of power input, yet aren't bipolar. No one said anything about cost.

Further the ability of a speaker to handle power input has nothing to do with its ability to produce good sound. Some very fine speakers are limited in their sensitivity and their power handling as well, meaning they don't play super loud. That makes them no less a great speaker, it merely means if you want to listen loud, you probably won't enjoy them.

Regards,

 

[Greg Br]

Anthony, you are saying that taking the bass out of the equation that VMPS are that much better than the Paradigms, wow thats really saying something, do you know what their website is, I would like to listen to them as I was impressed by a speaker 10 times inferior to the VMPS. I only used the Paradigms as an example cause they sounded good last weekend, I was not comparing them to your speakers.

 

[Bob_A]

A bipolar speaker has additional matching drivers in the rear. Extra drivers should give the speaker added power handling, correct? My point was that the addition of drivers to the speaker gives the speaker added power handling. This is according to Def Tech Specs. No one said anything about non-bipolar speakers not being able to handle lots of power. No one said anything about non-bipolar speakers not being able to produce good sound. To my understanding, adding extra drivers to the rear will increase power handling, add to the spaciousness of the sound, and possibly add to the depth of the sound. Of course there is no "right" way to do things. Ultimately the proof is in the listening.

 

[John Kotches]

Bob,
Doubling the number of drivers doesn't increase power handling, although it does improve sensitivity.
Additionally, depending on wiring strategies, it could very well decrease apparent power of the amplifier. Wired series, you double the impedance load that the amplifier sees. Twice the sensitivy, half the amplifier power because of the doubled impedance. That's a break even in my book.
Wiring in parallel cuts the apparent impedance in half, which means the amplifier reaches maximum output twice as fast as before.
"Increased spaciousness and sense of depth"... that's subjective. Personally I prefer the sound of a dipolar radiator from a single driver for that type of effect, but arguing personal preference is of little value.
Regards,

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

Greg,

If you got to hometheaterspot and so a search for text by Dennis Erskine...you'll actually find some technically accurate comments on the pros and cons of bipolar speakers. Dennis is one of the most highly sought after custom home theater installer/designer in the entire country...there's very few people who know as much about real world acoustics than Dennis. I think you'll find his comments about bipolar speakers to be somewhat opposite of the inaccurate mantras you find repeated here over and over and over...

TV

 

[rodneyH]

WOW, I guess I have some OLD technology since I am running "cone" or was it "dome" tweeters

As far as a "bipolar" speaker and its a ability to produce accurate information, after researching the subject, from what I understand-a bipolar speaker really lacks or the ability to be truely accurate for music listening, but then again, I have a dome tweeter, so what do I know-tic

 

[Bob_A]

According to Def Tech's specs, the bipolar towers can handle significantly more power than their direct radiating equivalents (those with the matching drivers). Also according to Def Tech, the bipolars will be more at ease at higher volumes than their direct radiating equivalents.
As for talking to someone at hts about bipolars...maybe you should also talk to the hundreds of users on these boards, professional reviewers, musicians, etc. who love the bipolar sound.
rodney, I can assure you that many musicians have found the bipolar sound true to life. Everything sounds very natural and life-like (IMHO). Of course they need proper setup and matching of associated equipment to sound great. It all depends on how you define accuracy. Let me share with you something posted at avsforum about VMPS:
VMPS is a firm believer (as am I) that musicality comes first, not necessarily linear measurement in a test setup. 99% of speaker manufacturers wire multiple driver arrays with the midrange out of phase from the tweeters and woofers. This makes it easier to hide problems in the crossover and makes the speakers "measure" better. However, it completely destroys PROPER imaging. If you've ever A-B'd a pair of even older VMPS speakers to another pair of multiple driver speakers, you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

[Gil D]

Anthony,

Are the VMPS ribbons highly directional like the Martin Logans? I'm wondering how well they work for theater.

I just read some of the mud slinging from Brian C of VMPS on some old AudioAsylum threads and I have to say I lost some respect there.

 

[Bob_A]

Gil, people can change for the better. You can't single him out. Mr. Cheney has learned from his past arguments, and you don't see him getting into those heated debates anymore.