SVS 20-39CS and Samson S700 - Lack of Bass Problem

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Samson, Jul 28, 2001.

  1. Samson

    Samson Stunt Coordinator

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    I've already asked SVS tech support about this problem but I wanted to get other people's opinion also. I just set up the subwoofer with the Samson S700 amplifier. I've followed the setup instructions on the enclosed manual. It seems that the bass is lacking. The bass is definitely there during calibration on test tones but is extremely lacking when I am watching a movie.
    I've calibrated the sub at 82db and the front and center speakers at 75db. *I've adjusted all the settings on the dvd player and the receiver. **I also have the volume of the sub at 3/4 full as you suggested on the subwoofer manual. *I have the LFE level at 50% . It goes from -80 to +15. The LFE level is set at -35. During testing with movies it seems that I'm missing some bass. *There's no depth and volume to the bass. * *My main test movie is the Matrix. In the SVS manual that came with the sub I use one of the bass scenes that SVS recommends. ***I use 'The Landing' scene on Scene 15, 50:51, where Morpheus knees the floor. *On this scene, *I've heard people say that there's an incredible amount of bass when Morpheus knees the ground. There's hardly any bass coming out on this particular scene when I play this scene with my new sub. *Is this true as far as the amount of bass on this scene ? If this is true, I'm definitely missing the bass that everyone is referring to. Overall, there is very little bass coming out of the sub. *
    What really baffles me is that I can calibrate the sub at 7db higher than the front speakers using the internal test tones. But when I watch a movie, it's almost like the sub is not even working. Could it be the receiver or the dolby digital processor is defective ?
     
  2. Ned

    Ned Supporting Actor

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    I have the same combo and yes there's a pretty nice rumble through your own floor when Morpheus's foot goes through the movie one. It's what you'd hear if you stomped your own foot on a regular wood joist floor.
    Anywho, sounds like bass management issues. Have you set all speakers to small with sub to on? If so, move around while the movie plays to see if you're seating position is in a drastic null, unlikely but you never know. Is the sub in a nearby corner away from windows and openings?
    ------------------
    My Home Theater Page
     
  3. Samson

    Samson Stunt Coordinator

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    By the way, the all of the speakers were set to small and the crossover was set at 80hz.
     
  4. Julian Data

    Julian Data Second Unit

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    Where's the placement of the sub? You could be in a "null".
    ------------------
     
  5. Steve McWilliams

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    Or, if your calibration of the subwoofer level is based only on test tones from your receiver, instead of Avia or VE, etc. thru the DVD player, and bass is lacking when you play a DVD, it would seem likely that the problem is in the DVD player's settings or connection to the receiver.
     
  6. Tom Vodhanel

    Tom Vodhanel Cinematographer

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    1)turn the gain to max on the Samson
    2)if you're still using the Pioneer receiver, make sure it doesn't have any weird bass limiters engaged. And stay with straight 5.1 decoding until we narrow this down.(dont engage any DSPs or THX modes for now).
    3)if you're at 7dB over on the subwoofer...it should be LOUD...too loud really. It wouldn't surprise me if you backed down the calibration 5dBs or more once we figured this out.
    4)does your receiver really have a subwoofer leveler that ranges from -80 to +15? Are you sure this isn't some sort of *LIMITER* setting for you to engage?
    Try pushing that setting all the way one way and then the other...and get back to me after the MATRIX bank-vault gun battle scene [​IMG]
    TV
     
  7. Jon D

    Jon D Stunt Coordinator

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    Check all your connectors. Stray wires can screw up a signal. Also make sure you have high quality cable running to the amp. It may cost more, but it's worth it. Didn't somebody else have this same problem a long time ago?
    ------------------
    Gee, I hope this doesn't lower your opinion of me
     
  8. Bruce N

    Bruce N Second Unit

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    Samson, if you still have mondo trouble, I live in Leesburg and would be willing to come have a look. I have twin 20-39s and the Fidek amp. I'm sure we could figure it out.
    Bruce
    [email protected]
    ------------------
    "Why do I sense we've picked up another pathetic lifeform?"
     
  9. Ron Stimpson

    Ron Stimpson Stunt Coordinator

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    Pioneer receivers are famous for all sorts of bass limiters, LFE "Trim", peak limiters, low cut filters etc. As stated above, make damn sure you don't have ANY engaged, including the infamous "THX Movie Mode" (if present). This mode as on the Pioneer I messed with lately really killed low bass.
    Also, do NOT underestimate the power of adjusting polarity (even if all you do it 180deg. flips). I assume you have done this, AND placement. I recently did some experimentation in my own HT with twin CS/PC Ultra subs and could nearly induce a 20dB null(20dB!!) simply by the right (wrong) placement and phase adjustment. I had two Ultras going full blast and I literally could not hear them except for a mild flutter. I suspect you have some serious room cancellation, a bass limiter engaged, or just need anohter sub!
    Ron
     
  10. Cliff

    Cliff Stunt Coordinator

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  11. Samson

    Samson Stunt Coordinator

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    ["]He didn't say subwoofer leveler, rather, he said he has "the LFE level at 50% . It goes from -80 to +15. The LFE level is set at -35." As most of us know, there's a difference between adjusting levels on the sub out vs. the LFE. Maybe this is the problem, since LFE should be at 100%.
    Cliff["]
    Cliff is correct. I was referring to the LFE level not the subwoofer(channel) level. Is this correct should this be at 100% ?
     
  12. Ron Stimpson

    Ron Stimpson Stunt Coordinator

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    Samson,
    This is exactly what I was refering too!
    Those pesky limiters CAN be useful but typically they are set by the anal types that are protecting whimpy subs out there. Turn your sub off(!) then set this as high as it can go, THEN go back to your subwoofer level control and turn it down 5dB for now, THEN recalibrate using video essentials if you have it (don't trust the internal tones, and Avia can be tricky so VE is my favorite).
    Again, go thru your manual and make sure there isn't some sort of "low cut filter" (Pioneer has them) on, and you are in a "Direct" or other non-processed mode. Calibrate first to the same level as your mains, then find a nice brutal disk like Toy Story 2 and start edging the sub up 2-3 dBs at a time till you feel it's too much (or the sub bottoms). Then back off 2-3dB.
    This might well be the issue, we can always hope.
    Ron
     
  13. Cliff

    Cliff Stunt Coordinator

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  14. Samson

    Samson Stunt Coordinator

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    Ok. Things are starting to make sense. I will recalibrate and test as soon as I get home from work. I'll post with the results.
     
  15. Tom Vodhanel

    Tom Vodhanel Cinematographer

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    why would a *LFE* adjustment need more than a 20dB swing...worst case? And a simple 10dB swing should suffice for pretty much anything anyway.
    Then again, a ZERO adjustment of the LFE channel would also be fine for everything but some DTS stuff, and perhaps a DVD or 2 out of 25,000(?).
    Am I on the same page as everyone else here? I can't imagine a *LFE* trim menu that would allow a 95dB swing?
    Remember, the LFE is a specific channel encoded on specific digital sources...that's it.
    is the manual available for DL anywhere online? I tried the pioneer site and they wanted a password?
    TV
     
  16. Samson

    Samson Stunt Coordinator

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    Tom,
    I just sent you email with the Pioneer Elite manual attached.
     
  17. Samson

    Samson Stunt Coordinator

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    Below is the text directly relating to the LFE on the Pioneer Elite.
    SETUP
    1 Select gBass Levelh with the 5‡ buttons or
    MULTI JOG dial (if continuing from
    Crossover Network it will already be
    selected).
    See gSetting Up for Surround Soundg on page 27 if you are
    unsure how to do this.
    Press the ENTER button.
    2 Output the test tone for the LFE channel
    and specify the peak level.
    If your subwoofer has a volume control, set it to the middle
    position before proceeding.
    1 SETTING START will be selected, press ENTER
    The MASTER VOLUME goes to the reference level [MIN (---
    dB)]. Then the test tone is output to the subwoofer, front or
    surround speakers.
    2 Use the 5/‡ buttons (or the MULTI JOG dial) to select the
    Bass Level. Each press moves the level 1dB in a range of -
    80dB to +12dB. Gradually increase the level of the LFE
    channel until the test tone begins to distort. Then go back
    and leave the level setting at a point just before that.
    3 Press the ENTER button.
    It takes a few seconds for the MASTER VOLUME to return
    to its previous position.
    3 gBass Level Endh will appear in the display.
    Press the ENTER button to go to gD-Range
    Cont.h
    Next, proceed to D-Range Control on the next page.
    If you want to change a setting before proceeding use the
    5/‡ buttons (or the MULTI JOG dial) to go back.
    Bass Level
    The LFE (Low Frequency Effect) channel in Dolby Digital or DTS program sources can produce heavy ultra-low
    bass tones that may exceed the capabilities of your speaker system. The following steps show you how to set a
    maximum output level for the LFE channel. If continuing from Crossover Network go to step 1. If starting fresh,
    complete steps 1-3 in "Setting Up for Surround Sound" (p.27) first.
     
  18. Tom Vodhanel

    Tom Vodhanel Cinematographer

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    >>>to select the
    Bass Level. Each press moves the level 1dB in a range of -
    80dB to +12dB. Gradually increase the level of the LFE
    channel until the test tone begins to distort. Then go back
    and leave the level setting at a point just before
     
  19. Ron Stimpson

    Ron Stimpson Stunt Coordinator

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    Samson,
    As we've said, turn all that stuff up/off/or just make it gone.
    The "till it distorts" routine will do nothing (usually) but get in the way. Don't trust Pioneer to tell you what your sub can handle. Do it with simple calibration and watching a few movies.
    That menu is only setting a limiter that you rarely will need. Use your SPL meter to calibrate using VE. Turn the sub off and go into the menu and turn those limiters all the way up, check for ANY other such thing like the "low cut" subsonic filter (REALLY anal on Pioneers I think, starts around 30Hz or something). Then recalibrate. You are on the right track now run with it.
    Ron
    [Edited last by Ron Stimpson on July 28, 2001 at 08:11 PM]
     
  20. MikeAF

    MikeAF Stunt Coordinator

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    Ron and Tom,
    Thanks so much for this info. I have a Pioneer Elite receiver also and I'm getting my dual 20-39CS subs plus the Samson amp and I would have gone nuts if I didn't notice any difference when I hooked the subs up into my system. I have now turned the peak bass up to +12 (all the way) and will be ready when my subs arrive on Thursday to calibrate the system. Thanks again.
    Mike
     

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