svs 20-39-isd, pb12-isd, or velo-dls5000r??? (1 Viewer)

[paul-F]

How does the DLS 5000R compare with the SVS12-ISD or the HSU VTF3 or Outlaw LFM-1 as they are all single driver Subs in the same price range as the Velo?

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>Tom V., I thought all along that Velo claim by some was fishy. Could not find any comparo's to check on it though. Do you have a link to that test you quoted from?>>In a chamber or outside tells one story, but in a typical dedicated theater, a totally different real world perspective can be obtained.

 

[John S]

I'll have to dig the posted links back up for the data.


My distortion numbers were measured by running a comparative of input -vs- output waves. Both subs were in opposite corners of the room one on each side of the screen.

I'm going to dig up the threads I posted the shoot out on to help refresh my memory some.

When I see how loud a sub will go at any given frequency, I more or less just turn up the gain all the way. We hit 110 at 20hz easily with both subs in this particular room.

Which was like 20' x 30' x 8' if I remember correctly, but I will have to go dig up the thread in all honesty as this was a while ago now.


I can also say, the SVS owner was certainly shocked at the results from such a cheapo subo.

 

[Lee-c]

Hmm, but how badly was the Velo distorting (THD) at those volume levels?

 

[John S]

What the shootout show'd me was not which is really the better sub, but just how much bearing the room has on how your subs will actually perform.

26% distortion on the velo was what I remember at 110db at 20hz. The SVS was not in the 20%+ distortion range until 16hz.


The SVS is surely the better sub have no doubt. I have tried my darndest to get a few people to try one or even two of their dual 12" subs, especially if they do lots of music on their system. Nobody wants to pony up the extra money these days and Velodyne still has the strongest presence with the lesser audiophile and non audiophile types. Many people just seem to feel Velodyne is the best, I liken this to the Bose syndrome somewhat, except that Velodynes generally do perform well over all.

In this particular room except for the null the owner was attempting to get rid of by going with dual subs, the SVS seemed silky flat in it's reproduction, the velo was all over the place, not flat at all, but then again, this seemed to give some scenes more impact.


My Verdict some many months after this testing?
The DLS5000R is a decent sounding sub that can meet high demand applications on a budget.

The Ultra/2 is one of the best subs out there at any price. You pay a lot for that performance, but it does deliver and sounds about as good as it can get in a box subwoofer. It not only meets high demand but sounds as perfect as it gets doing it.

I know SVS hates for people to talk about musicality. But if your a truly high end audiophile music freak type, You would have to go with SVS on flatness alone over any other similar type footprint sub. Flatness just is not as imporatant for HT use where sheer impact is most important. Even though the music types seem to prefer other subs, not me. After seeing just how flat the SVS Ultra/2 is, I am sold. I mean, you could professionally mix with the thing, no problem.

I would not even think about mixing with a DLS5000R.

 

[John S]

Tom, I'll bet it could not hit very high at 20hz using the Jazz / Classical preset they used. It almost looks like deliberate sabotoge of the results in all honesty.

I did just dig up those AVTalk test results...
Now I remember the biggest thing they did that made the test pretty much invalid, is they used the Jazz preset on the EQ.

This will give the weakest output possible down low. The movie preset moves the extension strong down to 20hz. Why they chose to intentionally hamper the results, I cannot say. The Jazz preset actually intentionally reduces output below 30hz just as their chart shows.

I can assure you movie preset would have fair much much better in the test performance wise.

 

[John S]

PS: I had always wondered what genius said to use the Jazz preset on these tests, so I actually registered there and asked them on the test results page.

I mean their graph matches the performance characteristics of the jazz preset very well.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

Hi John,

I bet the dsl5000 is better than decent sounding...I bet it sounds great. But that doesn't change the fact that it is primarily designed for performance >32-35hz. This is *clearly* shown in the avtalk data I have already referenced.

Without know what measurement gear and methods were used to gather your thd data...it is impossible to comment on it futher than...it contradicts the published data.

According to this velodyne paper...*jazz* is the preset that extends the deepest and flattest. And the curves in this white paper match up VERY closely with the curves in the avtalk data. Based on this---they choose the best preset I would think?

http://www.velodyne.com/velodyne/tec...per2_final.pdf

Tom V.
SVS

 

[Brent_S]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but in the interest of an objective comparison for the original poster:

John S...you say during your shootout that SVS and Velo were in opposite corners of the room. You just ruled out any possible objective comparison between the two subs in that room by using different in-room placements. Especially, since you mention the SVS owner was fighting a null in this particular room.

Looking through the Velo paper that Tom linked, I can see why the movie mode might sound like it has more bass. It has the same subsonic filter @ 24hz as the jazz mode, but it dials in +4 db of boost @ 37hz. There's also some volume differential of +8 db while the jazz mode is flat. This would also make the AVTalk guys' choice to use the jazz mode for measuring output capability correct.

wbs

 

[Jordan Placheck]

The settings that velodyne gave on the pdf are for the dls-3750r (10" driver).

I wonder if the settings for the dls-5000r are the same? I don't think it would be wise on their part if that were the case.

Who would cut off a 15" driver at 24hz????

 

[John S]

Say what you will. This room was identical, the corner did not matter at all, as the owner had placed the SVS in the same corner as the Velodyne was for testing with zero change in performance.


In short for the test they "AVSTalk" screwed up on this product as far as I am concerned. I swear, it seems almost intentional. I can assure you in my shootout. if I had the preset on Jazz / Classical the SVS would have blown the Velo right out of the water.

As an owner who has tested this thing quite a bit. The movie preset is the only preset that gives the DLS5000R any chance of hanging with higher end subs.

Tom, designed for or not. The movie preset does hurt it's flatness a lot, but also gives it good extension down to 20hz.

The test they did really shows nothing as far as I am concerned. I suggested if they get a chance to test again, they use the Movie preset, any other preset is not going to give it a fighting chance.


Just goes to show how menaingless testing can be, if you really dig into the parameters of the test. I certainly would not have known if I did not own and have so much experience with the product.

 

[John S]

Tom
"Without know what measurement gear and methods were used to gather your thd data...it is impossible to comment on it futher than...it contradicts the published data."


I don't think there is any contradiction in the numbers.

They intentionally did not use the DSP to any advantage in the testing. The movie preset would have given them good extension to 20hz period. The distortion numbers being lower, I can only attribute to room gain.

My testing shows that extension sucks on the jazz preset, but it is defiently flatter. The link you posted on the presets were for a much smaller subwoofer.

In short use the movie preset with a DLS5000R and give the sub it's due.


AVS Talk's test gives a false picture of the subs true extension and performance period. Why have the DSP built in if you are not going to use it?

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Of course, the room will have a similar effect on both, it won't affect relative performance.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

John,

The only thing you've pointed at as a possible "screw up" is the DSP mode...and Velodyne's own white paper shows that JAZZ mode produces the deepest/flattest output on the DLS series.

If you want to look at the begiining of the avtalk tests and see how they documented their measurement methods...and then do the same for your test..that might help everyone to understand exactly why their measurements and your measurements are so different.
As it is...it is impossible to argue against vague references to "my testing"...when you provide no details on the measurement gear, the measurement methods...or, for that matter, the actual measurements you keep referring too?

Tom V.
SVS

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>Just goes to show how menaingless testing can be, if you really dig into the parameters of the test.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>I wonder if the settings for the dls-5000r are the same? I don't think it would be wise on their part if that were the case.

 

[John S]

Well you get better extension with the movies preset.
My testing was done with EQ Room Wizard on a laptop.


I did get a screen shot of my 20hz test, after I ran the comparitive that is supposed to give you a distortion spec. pop up along with the response.

 

[John S]

All I know is everytime I dig into virtually all professional tests, I find things about the test that decrease their validity for me. In this case you used their test data to show that it would not hit good output at 20hz and that is not the case with the product, but you have to use the Movie EQ preset to do it.

That is why I like to do my own testing. I realize your not really supposed to gain below the tuning frequency, but if it gives me better extension, I game for sure.


The movie preset does do a number on the flattness so I have to sort of go with the white paper / Velo specs on that note. But if you want extension on this product down to 20hz, better use the movie preset even at the cost of additional distortion. This is where I leave it anymore.


Interesting thread. I get hate mail every time my Sunday Shoot out experience comes up, you would think I would learn to just keep my posts out of these things.


I will have to try to be better in the future about this, I sure regret posting my experiences in this thread. But I sort of got cornered on it, after I chose the DLS5000R out of the subs he listed as considerations. So I felt I had to at least give my reasonings and experiences on it. And then using that data from the AV Talk site, you indicated that it would take 30 DLS5000R's to match one SVS Ultra/2????

I think two of these would perform overall better than one Ultra/2 down to 20hz.

Not much else to say on the matter really.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

John,

Please.

All you did was take this RTA display from John Johnson's dls5000 review...and then you erased the SPL and THD values and inserted your own. I have been using spectra/soundtechnology for almost a decade and it is painfully obvious how this graph has been altered.

Here is a link to John Johnson's review. Notice that the two responses are *exactly* the same? This would be IMPOSSIBLE given you are both measuring in two different rooms. Hell, JJ himself couldn't duplicate the measurement EXACTLY like this(even if he just repeated the measurement twice)...and you want me to believe in a completely different room, with a different PC, different soundcard, different mic, different measurement distance...your chart just happens to be an EXACT duplicate?

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...05-part-2.html


come on John, the *gig* is up...


Tom V.
SVS

 

[John S]

I'll delete it. I did actually think it was mine though. I had it loaded on my laptop anyways. But that is obviously the same test. I guess I can't find my test results. If I can track down where it came from maybe I can bust him as you did me!!

I know mine is somewhere. Thanks for letting me know. I guess I am not really sure where the heck it came from. I just saved it from somewhere, maybe that site. I tend to save them for comparisons. Makes me wonder where the heck that one came from though. I may try to track down the link so I can bust him.

These were absolutely real tests performed in Todd Smith's Theater here in the Denver area though.

I'd be afraid to post another one, without just re-creating the test. That is what I should do, I have to many saved on my laptop and apparently from different sources. Not so good, months after the fact.