Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread (1 Viewer)

[Norm]

I agree on both points. I think the real problem with Singer is the fact that he is mainly a Donner Superman fan and not an actual Superman comic book fan. And in there lies the problem. He doesn't know the Superman universe well enough. And surprisingly his writers didn't help him much.

 

[Inspector Hammer!]

I'm also not down with Zod, we've seen him too many times now, in Superman II and most recently Smallville, Singer needs to go do some Superman homework and dig deeper than that. Hell, he didn't have any other films to work off of with the X-Men series and look what he did with those, so the man is capable, he just needs to broaden his mind in regards to Superman, that's all.

I recommend that he take a read through the book Superman: The Ultimate Guide to the Man of Steel, it lists a good amount of Supes' enemies in there, Singer could simply choose one or two right from there.

My two if I had to choose would be Darkseid and Bizarro, i'd also like to see Doomsday however there is too much baggage there to deal with, fans would be expecting him to kill Superman and then would complain that Singer has no nerve when he doesn't.

I fear that it wouldn't work out well for Singer bringing Doomsday into the film series. Still, to see a live-action fight between those two would give this Superman fan a woody lol.

Encantadora would also be nice, lots of possibilities for hotness there.

 

[JonZ]

"And in there lies the problem. He doesn't know the Superman universe well enough."

Thats why he has writters. I agree the sequel has to go into completely new territory. They want Zod to make a appearance, fine, but the main focus has to go on someone else.

I know Michael Dougherty and Singer will be busy with Treat r Treat in upcoming months, but all involved should be reading Superman comics around the clock preparing for the sequel.

 

[CoreyII]

Paul, Norm, Inspector, and JonZ,

I agree with everything all of you have written. Not to sound stuck up, but many of your issues with the movie were points I had raised before as well. Paul, Brainiac is a great villain to use in the movie, but don't count Luthor out of the game yet. Paul, you probably wouldn't have had as much of a problem with Luthor as the villain if Singer had given the audience the Luthor from the comic books instead of a slightly more twisted version of Hackman's Luthor. But as you, Norm, the Inspector, and JonZ have stated, Singer is not well versed in the current DC Superman Universe or at least he hasn't shown it yet.

As I have mentioned before, the moment I saw Kevin Spacey sneaking into the museum wearing a bad wig for a disguise, I knew right then and there that Bryan Singer, Michael Dougherty , and Dan Harris had no concept of how Superman and his supporting characters are written today. The current incarnation of Luthor,would never stoop as low as to committ a petty crime such a burgulary, he would have one of his henchmen steal the kryptonite and then once it was in his possession he would have it hidden within the vast subterranean levels of Lexcorp.

Anyway, Paul you mentioned the Bruce Timm Superman animated series, right now I am half way through Justice League Unlimited Season 1, and the "Project Cadmus" storyline is incredible. It is far more engaging than what Singer's crew put out and Luthor is in the center of all the chaos.

Although I had no problem with X-Men: The Last Stand, personally, I think Singer should have stayed on X-Men and let Brett Rattner or someone else handle Superman.

 

[Paul_Scott]

I have the first disc of JLU coming in from Netflix (probably today!) and am looking forward to seeing it.

 

[Chuck Mayer]

JLU S1 (really seaons 1 and 2) have a great ongoing storyline wrapped within lots of great one-offs. One of the best two seasons of TV I've ever seen.

 

[Bryan Ri]

Who says you have to recreate the comics that are written TODAY? I would argue that if anything, the creative team tried too much to pay homage to the previous incarnations of Superman. As seen through various interviews, Singer has a vast knowledge of the history of the character. He chose to make HIS movie in a particular way. With some of us, the movie struck a very positive chord. Some were underwhelmed.

I'm sick of the thread crapping that goes on with every discussion about Superman on these boards. Whether its in the software section or the movie section, it turns into a cat fight about Bryan Singer.

 

[Norm]

Hey, I liked Superman Returns, but as I previously said before seeing the movie that Singer should have ignored the Donner movies. I can't wait to see what he does now. If he relies on Zod then we all know where thats going to end up. I just hope he digs into the DC Universe & grabs a cool villain even if its another DC characters villain. As I said before I want someone who can go toe to toe with Superman & not another mental villain. If they ever feel the need to bring in another hero like Batman. I would much rather someone like Captain Marvel (Shazam) because at least we could get a good fight out of it. Right now I would be thrilled if we got Bizarro or Parasite.

 

[Larry Sutliff]

Bryan, I agree. Superman and his supporting cast have a far richer history than the last 15 years or so. Some of the best Superman tales came long before 1990, and some of us prefer the mad scientist Luthor to the evil businessman that has been appearing in the comics since the late eighties.

 

[Bryan Ri]

It would even be interesting to see a comination of the two, maybe similar to the Luthor from TAS.

 

[Chuck Mayer]

I like mad scientist Luthor as well. Unfortunately, Spacey's Luthor was merely a less charming more sinister variation of Hackman's Luthor Who is neither scientist nor businessman.

I don't agree with Bryan's opinion that Singer "has a vast knowledge of the history of the character". I don't believe he does. I believe he has a vast love for Donner's work on the character. I think he's been pretty straightforward about that.

 

[Bryan Ri]

To respecfully rebuttle, I'm basing this off of the Look, Up in the Sky! documentary, and his Q&A at Comic Con. I can't pull quotes, but my overall feeling was that he was well aware of the history of the Superman character. He knew who created him (which is important to Superman's origin), and the various incarnations of the character throughout the decades. He also was TRYING to create his own interpretation of Superman while paying homage to previous versions.

He did focus on Donner's work, using his movies as the cannon origin story. It's very clear that Superman Returns meant different things to many of us here. I felt that Spacey's Luthor was night and day with Hackman's. Re-using certain lines of dialogue and different takes on a scheme do NOT qualify as a simple readjustment of Hackman, in my opinion.

I would argue that the love for Donner's work ends there. The look of the movie, minus the crystals, was very different. Routh's Superman was quite different, Perry White was different, Lois was different.

I know I'm setting myself up to be slammed as an apologist here, but so be it. I loved Singer's take on Superman more than any other, despite growing up on Donner's version. Even if Zod is in the sequel, I'm willing to give Singer a chance to see where it goes and how it's used. He's a talented filmmaker who is partially responsable for saving the so-called comic book movie. He's earned the benifit of the doubt, in my book.

 

[CoreyII]

Hey Bryan,

First of all, I'm not thread crapping. Secondly, what I stated is an opinion which happens to be in accordance with four other people who also feel that Singer's knowledge of Superman only extends to the Donner/Lester movies. So please Bryan don't just single me out, I've done nothing wrong but post an opinion that is contrary to yours. Maybe you've forgotten, but that is what the movie section of the Home Theater Forum is about, posting opinions about movies. If opinions that are opposite to your own offend you then I suggest you develop thicker skin or Kryptonian skin .

Bryan if you like the movie then fine, I honestly respect that, but at least be open to the fact that there are others who flat out didn't like Superman Returns and I'm one of them.

Bryan you claim that your assesment of Singer's Superman knowledge came from watching his Comic-Con Q & A session on the Up, Up and Away documentary, well I was actually at the Q&A the year before the movie was released and this year while the film was currently playing in the theaters. I even stood in line and asked the man why he would want to pick up after a movie that is almost 30 years old, his answer was that if it wasn't for Superman: The Movie, there would be no X-Men or Spider-Man films. Personally, I don' think he really answered my question, I think Singer was just paying lip service to the Comic-Con crowd. But, my point is, I've actually spoken to the man in person, and heard him speak in person three times in the last six years and I can honestly say the man doesn't seem to understand the Superman universe past what Richard Donner has already established.

Oh, and as far as this situation of some forum members preferring Mad Scientist Lex over Corporate Lex goes, many people may have forgotten that Corporate Lex is still a scientific genius, it's just that in his current incarnation he's used his scientific knowledge to make billions of dollars. He is still a scientist and quite mad on certain levels.

 

[Bryan Ri]

I appologize that I came off as singling you out, Corey. It certainly was not my intention.

 

[CoreyII]

It's all good, apology accepted.

 

[Paul_Scott]

slightly OT (but since it was already brought up...)
I watched all but the last two eps on the first disc of JLU. Even though animation tends to leave me cold (especially the stiff, low budget network kind) I really enjoyed what I saw. So much so that I'm going to keep the copy I ordered from DDD instead of sending it back (I ordered way too much stuff this last sale and I'm in the process of packing a lot of it up to send back).
Looks like it will be a fun ride.

I caught a little bit of the commentary on one of the eps, and its funny that Timm mentions Joss Whedon and Buffy in his apporach to the JLU material. The second ep on the disc that contains Supermans special Birthday gift is taken from a story by Alan Moore. Watching it I was reminded of one of my favorite Buffy eps- Normal Again from S6. Its basically the same story. Have to wonder if Joss (or whoever) read the Moore story and if that is what influenced that particular ep, or if it is just a common theme (I could see Star Trek doing something like that as well).
anyways, good stuff. Looking forward to seeing the rest of the season.
Is this storyline complete within the season, or does it have a cliffhanger?

 

[CoreyII]

Disc 1 is all individual adventures with rotating characters. Disc 2 is when it gets into the meat of the overall season story arc.

Hey Paul, I don't know how much you are into the Justice League series, but if you haven't watched season 2 of the Justice League, then I would suggest you watch it before getting too involved into season 1 of Justice League Unlimited. Season 2 of the Justice League sets up many of the storylines for season 1 of Unlimited.

As a matter of fact, to tie this into the whole Luthor debate, there is an episode on disc 3 of JLU where at the end Batman is laying up in bed all busted up (I won't divulge the reason's why) from a mission, as the episode ends you see Bruce Wayne watching a televised image of Luthor standing in front of the American flag. It is in my opinion a very chilling image of Superman's greatest enemy and a testament to the talent of Bruce Timm and company. They understand how truly evil Lex Luthor can be.

Although I prefer the stories that revolve around the core team members of Justice League seasons 1 and 2 as opposed to the rotating members of JLU ,I must agree with Chuck, JLU is turning out to be one of the best seasons of television I've ever watched. The Superfriends were never this cool.

 

[Larry Sutliff]

That's true, but I prefer to see Luthor get his hands dirty and do a lot of the work himself, rather than hang around an office in an Armani suit telling everyone else what to do.

 

[CoreyII]

Hey Larry,

I know I'm always ranting about the animated DC Universe, but if you aren't already watching it, the Justice League may be to your liking. Bruce Timm and company seem to bring some of mad scientist Lex into their incarnation of Luthor. As a matter of fact they even have him pimping the purple battle armor from the pre-crisis DC Universe.

Larry, season 1 of the Justice League introduces the Injustice Gang (or League), it is a two-part episode that has plenty of mad scientist Lex for you. As a matter of fact that two part story arc does a clever way transitioning Lex from corporate schemer to the mad scientist that you know and love from the pre-Crisis DC Universe.

Bruce Timm and many of his staff seem to have alot of love for the old school DC Universe, because they are constantly making sly references on Justice League.

Anyway, Larry I'll take new school Lex any day. He is still an evil scientist plus he has the Machevellian criminal tactics of Marvel's Kingpin, another favorite villain of mine.

 

[Larry Sutliff]

Thanks for the recommendation, Corey. A friend of mine keeps telling me to watch the animated JL, and I keep putting it off. Are they on DVD? If so, I'll put them on my Netflix queue.