SUPER ELF tidbit

Discussion in 'Home Theater Projects' started by AllanRW, Aug 1, 2003.

  1. AllanRW

    AllanRW Second Unit

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    For those interested.
    W3-871S in the high end in its own encloser, and the W3-319S1 in the low end.

    This is un smoothed just a taste.

    Al[​IMG]
     
  2. Greg Yeatts

    Greg Yeatts Second Unit

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    Al

    How loud will one of these play in a HT situation crossed over at 125 or 100 hertz? TIA
     
  3. AllanRW

    AllanRW Second Unit

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    http://www.marantz.com/hifi/america/main.html

    http://members.shaw.ca/awooley/pictu...RELFHTRear.JPG
    http://members.shaw.ca/awooley/pictures/SuperELFHT.JPG

    This reciever is running these little gems in a HT I just finished a month ago.
    Matched with the Shiva Lock miter sub kit for them.
    The Warfs were removed after I took over a set of the Super ELF for them to listen to for a weekend.
    After 1 day they called back and asked how soon I could have the 5 of them finished.NO veneer, just black finish they asked.Well finish a sub for us as well.
    NoW the CEO of a very large company is a very happy camper with his ultra small kick@$$ package.In his own words.

    And they listen and a very high level using this amp I installed as well.

    But if you go nuts in a power case.No 3" will handle 100Watts of nutty power.But a modest HT in good size room will do just fine.
    Now the customer has to sell off his 2yr old Warfs.[​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  4. TimForman

    TimForman Supporting Actor

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    I'd like to extend my appreciation to Al and CSS for sharing the Tang Band drivers and their applications. These amazing little speakers give those of us with shallow pockets the opportunity to build and experiment with exceptional results. That's a very impressive graph for a pair of drivers that cost so little.
     
  5. AllanRW

    AllanRW Second Unit

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    yes and un smoothed to boot.
    Darn things just can not get smoother for the price.[​IMG]
     
  6. Chris Tsutsui

    Chris Tsutsui Screenwriter

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    I am interested in the crossover for the Super ELFs, is it just a simple 2-way? I'd like to know if I could buy the drivers locally and build a similar XO. Do you know if their kit has BSC built into it for their particular box?

    BTW, I'm getting a pair of Jordan 92XS. I'm going to first try them in a very large Dipole baffle, and then try them out in a vented box per Jim Griffith's design.

    I'll be sure to post a long review of these shortly as the drivers should arrive monday
     
  7. AllanRW

    AllanRW Second Unit

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    drivers and crossovers from CSS.
    The best bang at this time is with the Cabinet and the xover installed.
    http://www.creativesound.ca/details....del=SUPERELFCK
    The come with scalloping for th 3" drivers to get the best out put possible.

    Not a simple 2way.
    And no BSC.This would lower the out put to much for such a small improvement.Play with it but just not to the point of saying that would be best.
    I was going for optimal out put out of the 3" drivers in the high end.
    No matter how you put it the 100hz range is the low end.
    Tuned in the 90 range these push the point for low end.But not enough to cause problems.If you tuned in the 80 range yes, you will have only 2watts of out put power from them.

    On the driver arrangement.Not in any order.I just finishing the Spires which uses the 871S and then 4 of the W3-319S1
    F3 of 80 hz and F10 of 60s.Not bad for 3" drivers.
    Same thing out put against quality.I go quality all the way.

    Al
     
  8. Hank Frankenberg

    Hank Frankenberg Cinematographer

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    Alan, they seem to be quite the value 2-way system. I use the 871s in my single-driver Bosebusters.[​IMG]
     
  9. Brian Bunge

    Brian Bunge Producer

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    Hank,

    That would be our single driver BoseBusters! [​IMG]
     
  10. AllanRW

    AllanRW Second Unit

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    wonder who jumped up and down for some one to try them.
    Conmment::
    There can not be that much sound quality difference to the 879.::
    Looky Looky at the Micros now.[​IMG]

    Al
     
  11. Hank Frankenberg

    Hank Frankenberg Cinematographer

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    Brian, they're MY BoseBusters and YOUR Micro's. [​IMG]
    Also, Al gotcha there! Way to go, Al.[​IMG]
     
  12. Brian Bunge

    Brian Bunge Producer

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    Yeah, that Al doesn't talk much (yeah right!) but when he does, it's a doozy![​IMG]
     
  13. AllanRW

    AllanRW Second Unit

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    silents is best at times.
    Read learn and learn some more.
    Then start from scratch again.

    This fun yet.
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Jim Griffin

    Jim Griffin Extra

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    Before the train gets out of the station, let me point out some concerns that I have with the Super ELF. First, the W3-319 drivers are rated at 15 watts input and a 30 watts maximum power input. The Xmax is spec'ed at 0.5 mm. Given these numbers, you will have limited SPL capabilities on the low end of the band when you have them tuned below 100 Hz in a vented box. This means that you will not have substantial SPL output from these speakers plus you better watch how high you turn that volume control are they are toast. This maybe acceptable in a control situation--small to medium size room and controlled volume levels. Don't expect more putput levels than mid to upper 90's dB SPL from this driver and a lot less than that near 100 Hz and below. If you have a large room to fill with music/home theater and like to listen at loud levels the Super ELF is not for you.
     
  15. Brett DiMichele

    Brett DiMichele Producer

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    Jim,

    Is it reasonable to conclude that I don't think anyone in
    the know would expect high SPL out of these? There's no way
    around physics right?

    In a large room they certainly wouldn't cut it, but in a
    small room they should go plenty loud enough for most????
     
  16. Joel X

    Joel X Stunt Coordinator

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    I thought the largest advantage of these 871's was not needing a crossover in a critical point in the hearing range as the mid tweet commonly has. Is this advantage taken fully in this design? Just a thought due to the relatively low cost of this driver, it seems like a good idea to make lines to increase efficiency instead of having to use a mid and crossover. Any reason a seven driver line with the 871 would not succeed or six or fifteen...? Has anyone tried various numbers in series parallel without a crossover?
     
  17. Jim Griffin

    Jim Griffin Extra

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    Joel,

    It would be nice to have a line of W3-871S drivers and have them work full range without a crossover but physics will bite your backside. Comb lines form beyond a spacing of one wavelength center-to-center which would be 3705 Hz for frames touching. You can read about this in my new line array white paper available at the AudioDIYCentral site. In reality though the gain starts to fall off enough that you really need to crossover well before you get to 3700 Hz.

    I do have a Tang Band W3-871S line array design (16 per side with a single Esg3 ribbon tweeter) which is available from Creative Sound Solutions (see the photo on their front page). This is the Needles design and it works very well.

    Jim
     
  18. AllanRW

    AllanRW Second Unit

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    Well I agree with Jim to a point.Yes a large room these get a little lost.Well people shall we say again.These are only 3" speakers.
    Not a 4" or 5" or 6" you will never get low end extention out of the 879,871,881,319s1.Never going to happen.But the best low end out of them all is the 319S1 as the lower FS and more controled low end.
    Just the mid and upper break up mode.This is why these are crossed over before the 319S1 falls apart.
    The 871S will not go out smooth to 20 k with out a filter of some sort.
    Look at this
    http://members.shaw.ca/awooley/pictures/TB.8713s.JPG
    The spike at 15K can make these things sound very bright or sharp at times.The SE design gets the 15k spike to a more controled level.

    Next I will post the responce of the ELF 1.5 this week and we shall see were it lands?

    But like I said side by side the SE takes the Elf 1.5 and goes for a long walk on the beach.
    And for SPL the Elf 1.5 goes in the wind before the SE at higher levels.
    As I happen to have a few sets side by side and CSS Bob has even agreed and made statement once the SE is out the 1.5 is going to be phased out.
    The performance of the 2 is just no comparison.
     
  19. Jim Griffin

    Jim Griffin Extra

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    Al,

    You plotted both the Super ELF and ELF1.5 plots recently on your site and you have the same peak at 15 kHz on both plots. Don't be fooled by the fact that the ELF1.5 data is twice the scale (5 dB per major division) of the Super ELF (10 dB per major division). This is the same old trick that commercial companies do to make their data look flatter.

    The major difference in the bass area between the Super ELF and the ELF1.5 is where you crossover to a subwoofer. 120 Hz for the ELF1.5 and 90 Hz for the Super ELF. Neither speaker can stand on its own without a subwoofer if you want real bass.

    Jim
     
  20. AllanRW

    AllanRW Second Unit

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    Jim you will have to point me to my measurments with MLSSA with the 1.5.I do not recall doing it.As I have only had MLSSA up and running for a few months,but I can slip from time to time.
    The scales I leave a a default.I do not change them.Or tinker with the settings.All just reshot at same out put power and time frequency cut off in MLSSA 14 Bass goes out to 30 but raly for these we are not going out that low.

    But like I said I will shoot the 2 of them side by side in the AM with Bob from CSS sitting beside me .As he sells both why would I shoot down the 1.5 if He did not approve first.
    Facts prove it all like I said.
    And I have his goe before I do a thing with the 1.5 SE or 2.0 which is a MT using the CSS 6.5" driver as in the Alpha array from GR.
    Then the Spires.


    Al

    Bass like I said no 3" will get you down to 60 hz in high SPL.Not made yet.But you will have to get TB just to make one!!
     

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