Super Audio Wins Latest Vote Among Audiophiles (1 Viewer)

[Lee Scoggins]

Check out the following vote from Stereophile:
http://www.stereophile.com/vote.shtml
I think this is good evidence of Super Audio's popularity among the audiophile segment of the music world.
Even DVDA supporters have to admit that promotion has been terrible.
The good news is the next poll is that same issue!

 

[KeithH]

Lee, sorry, but yippee. What audiophiles think about the two formats means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Warner and hardware manufacturers are continuing to support DVD-Audio, and Sony is not doing nearly enough to try to translate the supposed popularity of SACD among audiophiles to the masses.

No offense, but results of such a Stereophile poll that favor SACD are what I would expect to see over on the Hi-Rez Highway on Audio Asylum. Wait, I saw it there earlier this evening.

Lee, please don't think I am attacking you. I just don't find this information as encouraging as you do.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Keith,
No problem, everyone's entitled to their opinion, even if I am right as usual.

Warner and hardware manufacturers are continuing to support DVD-Audio, and Sony is not doing nearly enough to try to translate the supposed popularity of SACD among audiophiles to the masses.

I actually think Sony is doing a lot more to promote Super Audio than Warner is to promote DVDA. I base this on:
1) not much catering to pro engineers based on my recording studio grapevine, including full DSD mastering systems
2) sorry title selection and very slow compared to Super Audio which has some huge titles on the way
3) no grass roots attempts by participants. we see Super Audio folks all day long at AA but only Dr. AIX chimes in for DVDA. Why not evangelists on the boards
4) very weak presence at last two HE2001 and HE2002 shows.
5) there is increasing hardware support for Super Audio.
6) copy-protection scheme is more challenging and this is huge for a record industry suffering from file sharing (although I agree they shot themselves in the foot)
Bottom line: Audiophiles may in fact drive this market if it means all the independent labels create a groundswell of support for the format. Would I care if it remains a niche format? no! Do I want the Beatles and Pink Floyd? yes!
I posted this because I think the format does, in fact, have a fairly large edge among audiophiles at this moment.

 

[John Kotches]

Lee,
All this says is that Sony has done well with their target market, audiophiles. Nothing more, nothing less.
The sales rates remain abysmal in comparison to CD....
In response to specific points:

Quote:

SACD could have the advantage here -- although I suspect once the pirates decide to attack the problem they will get around this.
Regards,

 

[Tomoko Noguchi]

I still like SACD the best and I guess you can call me a consumer rather than an audiophile.

 

[KeithH]

Lee said:

I actually think Sony is doing a lot more to promote Super Audio than Warner is to promote DVDA.

That may be true, and I have said nothing to the contrary. However, Sony is not doing enough. Sony Music's release rate for new titles on SACD in 2002 has been poor. Although Sony has released more titles on SACD than Warner has on DVD-Audio, we never see Sony advertising SACD outside of the audio and home-theater magazines, which a lot of folks don't read. I haven't seen an ad for SACD in Time, Newsweek, Sports Illustrated, USA Today, or on TV. I would think that Sony has the resources to take on such an ad campaign.

The point is that Sony has been very quiet about SACD in 2002. From everything I read, Sony did not have a major presence with SACD at the Home Entertainment show in New York City in May. Furthermore, Sony has been hush-hush about new SACD players. The 'CE775 was discontinued, and no replacement has been announced. A salesperson at Oade Bros. told me yesterday that they have been told that the 'C222ES and 'C555ES have been discontinued, but again, no replacements have been announced. Sorry, but I really don't see Sony supporting SACD like it should.

 

[KeithH]

By the way, if I worked for Warner or any other company with a vested interest in DVD-Audio, I wouldn't participate on the Hi-Rez Highway board on Audio Asylum. There is a clear bias there, and legitimate questions/discussions about DVD-Audio are very often met with disrespect. Furthermore, the folks at Warner have to realize that DVD-Audio can suceed without the blessing of the folks (small population) at Audio Asylum. With DVD-Audio being a common feature in $200 DVD players, who needs the audiophiles? The audiophiles will not drive the ultimate success or failure of either high-resolution format. If the audiophiles do not buy into DVD-Audio, all that means is that DVD-Audio will not become a niche format with them. That's fine. There is a much bigger picture out there, but right now, that bigger picture is largely a blank canvas. Hopefully Warner (and Sony) have plenty of paint.

 

[Paul_Medenwaldt]

I'm gonna try and not dumb down the conversation for this topic, but i'd like to give my point of view on this.

I purchased a JVC DVD player a couple years ago for about $400 which had the ability to play DVD-A, now you can buy the same player for about $200. Looking at this from an economical point of view a DVD-A player is much cheaper then purchasing a SACD player at this time.

I just recently purchased my first 2 DVD-A discs and have enjoyed the sound and quality of the discs, granted I don't have the full capabilities of listening to them on a huge DTS 5.1 audio system.

The discs i purchased were cheaper then the regular CD versions and one was even purchased from Columbia House. IMO with CH getting a small library of DVD-A discs should help that market out a bit and get the J6P consumer interested in what DVD-A is all about.

Paul

 

[Mike Broadman]

I actually think Sony is doing a lot more to promote Super Audio than Warner is to promote DVDA.

This is like choosing to die by being electrocuted rather than hung. They both suck sweaty donkey nuts.
Given their huge stash of popular rock titles, Warner has the potential to eek out an advantage with their software. The emphasis on multi-channel gives non-audiophiles a clear and obvious major difference over CDs (as opposed to "better sound quality," a claim many are wary of or simply not conerned about). If I want to show a quick demo to a non-audiophile, I usually go with a DVD-A.
The two formats sort of come from a different angle from an integration/compatibility angel: DVD-A lends itself to be packaged with DVD, ie, DVD player that handle DVD-A. DVD-A is usually backwards compatible with DVD. SACD is more in line with CD, ie, CD players that play SACD, and except for stupid Sony, SACDs are backwards compatible with CD. Yes yes, I know there are DVD players that only play SACD and not DVD and such, but I'm talking about how the formats are presented. They are certainly not presented in the "wrong" way.
Here's the way I see it: people are either into music more or movies, very few are hardcore into both- and no, the HTF is not a good sample of people to use.
Someone who's more interested in movies is less likely to be into jazz or classical, as those tend to be styles that require research and effort to get into, as opposed to rock, which everyone kind of knows about by default. This movie fan will be concerned with having a good DVD player. He sees DVD-A as a way to play his rock music in surround sound on his HT.
Someone who's more interested in music than movies is more likely to be into non-rock styles. It is no coincidence that classical music is so popular amongst audiophiles, for example. Not saying that they have "better" taste in music (I would actually argue that their emphasis on sound quality can exceed the interest in music itself which is detrimental to the music listening experience, but that's another topic), but that they are more likely to put more effort into learning about music. This person would be more interested in SACD, which is more linked to CD players from a marketing standpoint and offers more titles in non-rock music.
Obviously these are gross generalisations, but it's my interpretation of the general "feel" of the consumer base. The question is, which type of person are there more of, the Movie Guy or the Music Guy? I believe that as a culture, we have placed less emphasis on music than we used to, as is demonstrated by decreased record sales, a seemingly higher-than-usual preponderance of disposable bubble-gum and one-hit-ripping-each-other-off bands (though I may be wrong about this, I'm too young to faithfully compare), and the lack of artists or bands that bing the collective musical consciousness together, like Duke Ellington, the Beatles, and U2 did during their respective primes.
For the record, I actually personally like SACD better- both the sound but especially the titles available (any format with Miles Davis, Charles Mingus, and Thelonious Monk wins, hands down). But I'm just one person.
I believe DVD-A has the ability to overcome SACD, but they have to really want it. So far, they do not. The leaders of both formats are slacking.
The to-do list:
DVD-A:
- Make DVD players with DVD-A cheaper and more prevalent in B&M stores. Customers will ask about it and learn about the format, even if they don't buy the player.
- Standardise the way the titles are put together. Actually, there are specs, but some don't follow them. Whoever owns the DVD-A logo (Warner?) should absolutely not authorise a disc that doesn't meet their specs, including the ability to play disc without using the TV and including an advanced resolution stereo track, preferrably playable on any DVD player.
SACD:
- Three words: hybrid, hybrid, HYBRID! Sony, this means YOU! Get off your goddamn high horse and make them backwards compatible. This should be mandatory.
- Get some more multi-channel titles out to compete with DVD-A more effectively. There is no reason why they should have the edge over selling MC. Less than one-quarter of my SACDs are multi-channel. This is silly.
Both formats:
- MORE TITLES! Have they not learned something from the video game industry? It don't mean jack shiznit how fancy your format is if there isn't music coming out constantly to hear it. And yes, it has to be constant. Where is that King Crimson SACD or the Paul Simon DVD-A?
- Pure DSD / high-res PCM recordings. Convince artists to record with these formats. This would make the recordings sound better and draw more attention to the format from the prime customer target of record companies: younger buyers.
Mark Waldrep once posted that Maynard James Keenan was interested in DVD-A, but nothing could happen because of the way rock CDs are mastered for radio play (apologies if this is inaccurate). Can you just imagine what would happen to DVD-A if Tool released a new album in DVD-A? A band as popular with teens as they are respected by musicians and music fans, it would just be huge.
There is no confidence with their formats, just as there is no confidence with their artists. Ugh, now I'm getting angry
Ok, calm blue ocean... calm blue ocean...
NP: David Bowie, Diamond Dogs

 

[John Kotches]

Paul,

Please don't consider yourself as "dumbing down" a thread merely by participating.

In fairness, the cost of entry to SACD has gone down dramatically with clearance prices at $159 for the DVP-NS500V, $199 for the SCD-CE775 and $249 for the NC-650V.

See a reply I'm making to Keith momentarily.

Regards,

 

[John Kotches]

Keith and Lee:
I was highly disappointed to see that a new Sony progressive scan player (I don't recall whether it was the 715P or the 755P) was introduced at the US$200 price point which did not include SACD playback capability.
OTOH, Panasonic's players at the US$200 price point (the RP-82) and Toshiba's (SD-4700 and its replacement) support DVD-Audio playback.
Are we, or are we not in Mass Market phase with SACD?
It's the $200 price point players that are purchased as "starter players", and lack of inclusion at this price point completely misses the stealth upgrade I've addressed on several occasions.
From my point of view DVD-A has gone from the entry level market and branched out into the high end (Meridian 800 and 598, Arcam's upcoming effort, Muse's player et al), SACD has used the opposite approach.
Perhaps if the first DVD-Audio player had been the Meridian 800 the "$nob factor" of many audiophiles would have been triggered.
Regards,

 

[John Kotches]

Mike,
Nice rant, err post
Check players at the $200 price point and see the offerings for both formats in the DVD player aisles at Best Buy. You'll find DVD-A from JVC, Toshiba and Panasonic. For SACD offerings at the $200 price point you'll see....... Nothing If you go digging to that hidden away multi-channel kiosk you might still find a DVP-NS500V or a DVP-NC650V, but people buying DVD players won't go there to find a DVD player.
As far as the "ToDo" list for DVD-A, there are new recommendations for DVD-A Authoring released by WG-4, which can be downloaded here.
This addresses many of the complaints that have been made about DVD-A authoring, including some I made way back in 2000 (made it to virtual print in 2001)......
There is no one company that owns DVD-Audio, which is a tremendous marketing advantage for SACD, as Sony/Philips own the format and have substantial financial interests in its success.
Regards,

 

[Ken_McAlinden]

This just in! Beta rated superior to VHS by videophiles!

Whether one or both formats prevail will have very little to do with what audiophiles think. I'm not choosing sides, BTW. I have and enjoy titles in both formats, although I do not have DVD-audio hardware, so I try to limit myself to titles like the Rhino and EMI releases that have some of the high resolution content on the DVD-Video layer.
Regards,

 

[Lee Scoggins]

What point would a DVD-A supporter have in participating in the Audio Asylum's High-Res board? All that is SACD is praised... all that is not, is not. It's a severe waste of time for a DVD-A record label.

This is not as true as it has been in the past. Lately, Teresa has been carrying the charge on DVDA and posting some very well-written threads like th review on the Toshiba 9200. She's outnumbered but people are being more civil overall.

 

[John Kotches]

Lee:

A little more active moderation @ the Asylum would go a long ways to weeding out the worst offenders on both sides.

Regards,

 

[Lee Scoggins]

A little more active moderation @ the Asylum would go a long ways to weeding out the worst offenders on both sides.

We agree on this point. Alert the media!

 

[Dan Joy]

A little more active moderation @ the Asylum would go a long ways to weeding out the worst offenders on both sides.

I guess thats why they call it an ASYLUM
It is wonderful to view strong conversation towards hi resolution audio and all of you make valid points. Being a new comer with a modest set-up, I am enthralled with SACD(have not heard DVDA). I, as well as others am frustrated with:
lack of increasing output of material
lack of common places to purchase
lack of sales people knowledge
lack of hybrid material(I agree with Mike)
lack of communication from sacd players regarding intentions with releases
On the other hand, the sacd's I have are wonderful and I find myself not watching as much tv anymore (although my sacd player is getting overtime). I am happy to see both formats coexist as long as things improve and more titles are released.

 

[Paul_Medenwaldt]

I should of done my homework on SACD players! I didn't realize they had come down so much in price.
I may have something to add to my christams list this year!!
Paul

 

[John Tillman]

As a software guy for the past 20+ years I know that people grow an affinity for platforms and stick with them. I also know software is required to run on those platforms.

On the SACD side I have recently picked up or ordered:
Spiro gyro - modern times
Alison Krauss - new favorite
CCR - willie/poorboys & cosmos factory
Stones - hot rocks 1 & 2
Big Brother - cheap thrills

On the DVD-A side I'm going back to pick up a couple I missed first go around such as:
Doors - LA woman
Natalie Merchant - tigerlily

Sadly, I need to hit a bb or tower for a redbook moondance as the DVD-a didn't make it.

Look, they're both wonderful platforms that can go far on the wealth of music from the past 50 years. It would be sad to see either die. Maybe DVD-A can do the second half of the stones catalog, then split the fab four the same way. Now that would generate years of discussions!

 

[Evan S]

I just recently purchased my first 2 DVD-A discs and have enjoyed the sound and quality of the discs, granted I don't have the full capabilities of listening to them on a huge DTS 5.1 audio system.

Paul, DTS has nothing to do with DVD-A. I think you might be a tad confused. You do not need to have DTS on either your DVD player or Receiver to appreciate DVD-A.