Super Audio Shocker: Universal goes hybrid!?! (1 Viewer)

[Rob Roth]

Interesting analysis. I'm unclear what Sony's overall strategy is in this. At what point(s) in the value added chain do they plan to make money? When I noticed the plummeting prices for SACD players I figured it was the old Gillette strategy; practically give away the razor and make money on selling blades. But the Denon denial seems to argue that they are not interested in disc sales only.

For awhile I thought the play might be a desire to sell the DSD mastering/recording gear but it seems they have been practically giving that stuff away- at least to early adapters like Tom Jung of DMP.And in any case how big is that market?

The trajectory of the PC market seems to argue that the key to success is software control imposed on commoditized platforms. Do they make that much on licensing DSD?

Of course, as the last three years prove, it may be expecting too much that even large corporations make intelligent decisions.

 

[John Kotches]

Rob,

Actually I do understand the strategy behind "giving away" the mastering/recording gear. IMO, the key is to get DSD entrenched into the pro marketplace, then magic things can happen in terms of product delivery.

Keep in mind that much (if not all) of the production costs for the smaller labels' initial titles (5 or 10 depending on who you ask) were underwritten by Sony. Again, another good marketing move IMO.

In terms of licensing costs, truth be told the big $$$ add up on the media, with a few pennies per disc sold adding up to 10s and potentially 100s of millions of dollars when we're talking sales of 1 billion (or more) discs per year. I know SACD isn't up to that level, but when you think big like that, you start to see clearly where the $$$ are to be made in the coming years.

SACDs advantage isn't technical, this has been demonstrated by a number of people knowing far, far more than me. The advantage is that there is a concerted marketing effort behind SACD, and to date there has been none behind DVD-A.

Regards,

 

[Mike Broadman]

Quite frankly, I'm not convinced that SACD needs to become a mass market format in order to succeed. Can it not remain a niche product, with small marketing and steady, reliable, secure but relatively smaller profits? Not every titles needs to be released on SACD.

However, every title that is released on SACD should be a hybrid, and they should be more available in B&M stores. I'm getting tired of seeing only Sony titles and having to order everything on-line. I think that's hurting the format more than anything.

NP: Chick Corea Origins. A Week At The Blue Note, disc 6, CD

 

[Phil A]

There are considerable marketing forces behind both SACD and DVD-A. Sony is the primary force behind SACD and their marketing has left something to be desired on past format wars. The hybrid would be nice. DVD-A is getting a hefty push from Warner, which of course is owned by AOL Time Warner. I would venture to say that the idea playing of DVD-A in movie theaters had something to do with their stature in the market place. Sony has been slow to do things and is probably fortunate that DVD-A has some disadvantages such as the crazy sized case and the need to see a video display to select what you are playing or the excess of material on the discs that many audiophiles would not be interested in but I'm sure contribute to the cost. I was very happy seeing Rhino's "Brain Salad Surgery" came in a regular sized CD case and had instructions on which buttons to hit on the remote so one did not have to put on the TV. DVD-A should do more of this. Hopefully there will more titles in each format of the best resolution.

 

[Brian-W]

It's the John and Lee show

 

[Phil A]

We are actually waiting for John and Lee to be on celebrity boxing. I'd put money on Lee, I think John would over analyze the situation without really listening.

 

[John Kotches]

Phil,
Perhaps you missed this tidbit of mine....
Link Removed
I've listened a fair amount to SACD, and a fair amount to DVD-A.
Both sound far better than Redbook CD, which I'm pretty sure I've said on multiple occasions.
Technically speaking I think DVD-A is better, additionally the titles issued on DVD-A to date appeal to me more.
I'm trying to figure out what SACD player is taking up permanent residence in my reference system for the time being, so it's a far cry from my disliking the format.
Regards,

 

[Lee Scoggins]

We are actually waiting for John and Lee to be on celebrity boxing.

John better prepare well, I've been advancing in my kickboxing classes.
John,
I think convenience and better sound both play a role. The ability to play SACDs in the car and the like will happen over time if it becomes a mass market item.
Actually, I am only seriously interested in the mass market if it leads to better title selection. I think audiophiles and consumers alike, however, deserve better than redbook CD. And I am of the opinion that less listener fatigue will eventually help music sales. But a lot needs to be done - better recording, less stupid Pariah Carey contracts, more quality A&R.
You say Meridian is upset about sales of the new equipment. Well, tough darts! if they can't issue a simple press release then the public has free speech and can look for answers any where it pleases. Without more information, it is hard to sympathize with their predicament.
Why not tell us what their view on Super Audio is and what happened at the AES?
Again, we have no specific information that leads me to think that Stereophile was wrong on either story. If that changes I will report on it when it becomes public. That is completely fair.
In the meantime, let's all bask in the glow of more SACD titles and a real effort from Sony, Philips, and Universal.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

SACDs advantage isn't technical, this has been demonstrated by a number of people knowing far, far more than me.

Here you go again. This is pure opinion on the Super Audio format - I can produce an equal number of experts that feel it is technically superior to DVDA.

I think statements like these John reveal your partisan nature for DVDA and take away from thoughtful discussion.

 

[Phil A]

John - lighten up. I was just joking. I was quite amused by the previous threads. I am all for good software of any format. That includes plain old DVD video as well as DVD-A and SACD. I am putting back together my main system after ripping everything apart (and rewiring for a Sharp 9000 with a 100 inch screen) for months and waiting on my Bryston SP 1.7 while I make all my interconnects, power cords and speaker wire. I am not at all anti DVD-A. I just came back from Target and bought a 5 inch B&W TV with a video input so I could run composite from the DVD-A player in the bedroom system (so that I can go thru menus and not turn on the projector to listen to music) on the other side of the wall as the main system. My system is to the point that I am happy with it and want to enjoy the software (I'm all tweaked-out)of whatever format it comes out on. All I've said to date is that from what I have heard, I like SACD better and until there are a bunch of the same titles in both formats one cannot directly make apples to apples comparisons. I don't get into technical arguments, I am not overly technical and just enjoy the hobby. Aerodynamically, a bumble bee can't fly. If we were in the late 15th century technically the world was flat. You obviously are a very bright guy who sometimes seems to make very silly statements. A case in point is "The advantage is that there is a concerted marketing effort behind SACD, and to date there has been none behind DVD-A." I think I answered it in the previous post. Before you make another one, I just retired from the named company and in the finance area and still get budget related questions and know how much DVD-A is being supported. It also was not coincidence that when DIVX seemed to be gaining hold a certain online rental company came up the necessary funding. Those cos. that hold the software rights to entertainment whether it be music or movies are all trying to get their product bought by consumers. In fact, they envision the day when there is a server in your house and you get telephone, internet, cable and content piped into it for a fee. I would not jump to conclusions on the adequacy of a news reporting of a particular publication. Without information to support it, I don't think their legal staff would be happy. If you want to make a statement about a particular piece of music on a particular format just state what you listend to on what equipment so one can have a frame of reference and I am very interested. I am amused to a point but not very interested in silly statements that have no basis in fact.

 

[NickSo]

Will these Hybrid SACDs with all the new releases have the audio quality of the ones right now? Or will the major production of the discs lower audio quality to meet demands?

So these hybird discs will play in SACD audio quality on SACD players and play in normal Redbook audio quality on normal CD players?

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Will these Hybrid SACDs with all the new releases have the audio quality of the ones right now? Or will the major production of the discs lower audio quality to meet demands?

Difficult to say, but I suspect that the expense of creating the master will force some care in the mastering booth and everything will be fine. There will likely be some period of time before the full new business model comes on line.

Technically, I would expect them to stay the same. Indeed, it may lead indirectly to new, better audiophile releases if this positions SACD for growth (the risk involved in SACD will drop)...

 

[Will_B]

Seriously...anyone think if it was called SADVD...it would generate more interest...??

I think the marketing department would have some problems marketing "sad VD" to the public.

 

[KeithH]

Phil said:

We are actually waiting for John and Lee to be on celebrity boxing.

Hey, that's my line!
Lee,
This is good news, but as is standard fare for me, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Phil A]

Sorry Keith - I should have put it in quotes.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

the rapid success of CD

Why did CD take off?
Because most LPs were crappy pressings.
Because most people's turntables were crap.
Because LPs required more care; most didn't give it so crappy pressings sounded even worse after a couple dozen plays.
Because you had to flip LPs over.
Because LPs were not very portable.
Because pre-recorded tapes wore out even faster than homemade ones, especially when you carried them around and stuck them in multiple, dirty, misaligned decks in your car and walkman.
Because there was no competing digital format.
Because the record companies, the retailers, and the consumer electronics industry wanted it (a single format that made you need new hardware and to buy your record collection all over again) to.
Now 'Joe Six Pack' has CD. And it sounds good after tons of plays. You don't need to care for it as long as you put it right in its case. It's portable, you can play it on a portable. You can play it in your car. You can rip it to your computer.
Anybody really think that SACD and/or DVD-A gives 'Joe Six Pack' a fraction of what CD gave him over vinyl? He isn't an audiophile, folks, he just wanted 'good' sound with a lot of convenience.

 

[KeithH]

Phil,
No problem.
Michael,
Excellent post. Unfortunately, I agree with you. As much as I like SACD and DVD-Audio and want to see them make it in a big way, I feel the odds are against that happening. I don't see the CD going anywhere. The bottom line is I don't know anyone (not counting message boards) that has a problem with the sound quality of CDs. The CD is plenty good to the average listener.
All,
An encounter I had over the weekend sums up where SACD stands with the masses in my opinion. I was in Pittsburgh over the Memorial Day weekend and went into a used record store (Half-Price Books and Records in Robinson Township, for those who know the area). My girlfriend and I were rummaging through the used CDs when all of a sudden, I came across a sealed copy of the Billy Joel The Stranger stereo SACD. Like all the used CDs, the sealed SACD was marked $7.98. This store carries no new CDs, and this was the only SACD in the store. When I saw the SACD, I exclaimed to my girlfriend, "This shouldn't be here!". An employee overheard me from a few feet away and said to me, "Did you find a gem?". I explained to him that the Billy Joel disc was an SACD and as a sealed copy, it would sell for $17 at Best Buy. He had no idea what SACD was. I told him that it is a new format that sounds better than CD. He asked me if he could play the disc on his CD player, and I told him SACD requires a special player. He replied, "Sounds like a waste to me then." I told him that he should listen to the format. In the end, he took the disc and put it behind the counter. He was afraid someone would buy it thinking it was a CD. Now, one can argue that this employee's attitude is exactly why Sony needs to be producing hybrids SACDs, but this person was completely apathetic to SACD. He saw no need for SACD because it requires a special player. We are fighting an uphill battle.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

He saw no need for SACD because it requires a special player. We are fighting an uphill battle.

Keith,
Interesting story. Perhaps we may not have such a hard time if we keep it a niche market...or perhaps we get mass acceptance if Sony and Universal do issue new releases in hybrod form and also unleash a big marketing campaign. I can see either scenario.
I really believe people who get exposed to Super Audio will seek it out if they can find it easily and it is reasonably priced.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Friends,
We now have verification by way of Sony press release for the increased hybrid CD capacity through Sonopress
Check out this link and go to news....
http://www.superaudio-cd.com/
Well John, I guess Stereophile got that part of the story right, at least.

 

[Samuel Des]

I disagree with the comments regarding sound quality and the "average" listener. It is likely true that the casual fan of any given recording will not care so deeply about its sound quality. But all people have passions. Fans of a particular work will likely pursue the best quality recording of it, even if they are not "audiophiles." They are also likely to re-purchase it if it comes out in higher quality.

I'm also not so sure that the sound degradation is inaudible to the "average" listener. I don't think that listener fatigue is a trivial physical response. You don't have to have a trained ear to experience this.