Suggestions for a Prosumer Video Camera (1 Viewer)

[Al.Anderson]

My daughter is a sophmore in college studying film and dropped a hint that she could use a video camera. I’m not even into home movies anymore and am clueless. So, I’m looking for advice on what features a college-level user “in the field” needs in a camera; nice to haves are good too. Also, I couldn’t think of a better place to put this. If there’s a better spot, please comment, and I’ll ask a moderator to move it. Thanks!

 

[Sam Posten]

Camera forum is probably a better bet. What budget? What kind of end results are you talking about? Is this a hobby project or "I'm serious about film and I'm going to do this for the rest of my life". If you are making a short film something like the Canon 5DM MK 2 or the Sony FS100 might be your best bets, but those are a couple K and up. The nice thing about using interchangeable lens kits are you can get terrifically thin DOF and really nail the film look. The downsides are cost, processing needed to edit, jelly wobble on fast pans, etc. If it's for messing around with personal stuff grab whatever feels right at Costco. Extreme Sports? Go Pro 2! Again the camera is only a very small part of the problem here: Editing software Editing suite hardware Actual good script. Script software. Actors Film budget Backups Cameras have democratized crappy film. Actual good results require a lot more than a trip to costco. I can recommend some good books if you want.

 

[Sam Posten]

Books I've read: http://www.amazon.com/Still-Motion-photographers-creating-Voices/dp/0321702115/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1322679402&sr=1-1-spell Others I hear are good: http://www.amazon.com/Visual-Stories-Behind-Vincent-Laforet/dp/0321793927/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1322679413&sr=1-1 http://www.amazon.com/DSLR-Cinema-Crafting-Film-Video/dp/0240815513/ref=pd_sim_b_1 http://www.amazon.com/Filmmakers-Eye-Learning-Cinematic-Composition/dp/0240812174/ref=pd_sim_b_2 http://www.amazon.com/Master-Shots-Techniques-Expensive-Low-Budget/dp/1932907513/ref=pd_sim_b_1 One I've pre-ordered: http://www.amazon.com/Still-Motion-Editing-Video-Final/dp/0321811259/ref=bxgy_cc_b_text_b Don't know about this one but sounds good: http://www.amazon.com/Master-Shots-Techniques-Expensive-Low-Budget/dp/1932907513/ref=pd_sim_b_1 Dunno bout this one: http://www.amazon.com/Film-Editing-Great-Every-Filmmaker/dp/1932907629/ref=pd_sim_b_28

 

[Al.Anderson]

Thanks Sam! This is for a sophomore in college studying film. (Which translates into ... for the rest of my life unless that doesn't work out in the next 2 years.) Also, she's actually targeting writing for TV, but wants to do the peripherally related stuff for the experiences. I believe they're making 10 minute films, so shorts might be pushing it. (But again, it's her 2nd year, I don't know what they do in year 4.) They have editing s/w provided by the school. She and her friends all act (on stage, but that doesn't stop them from stepping in front of cameras). And as for scripts, she writes them. (Good? We'll see.) Maybe the better point is that she doesn't plan on having anyone actually watch these things; she needs enough capability to play with and understand current techniques. But to the actual budget, about a grand. Although if it's for this Christmas its $500, if it's for this Christmas plus her birthday it's $1000. The couple grand will have to wait until she changes her mind about her goals - and she graduates. Thanks for the book suggestions; maybe those will become this year's gift. By Camera forum, do you mean the Photography forum?

 

[Sam Posten]

Yes i do. I can't stress this enough: As someone who taught in a university the one thing YOU as a parent must stress on your kids is that college is only going to teach them the basics and much of what they are learning a million other people are out there doing for free, learning on their own, because they have a passion for it. If whatever it is they are learning about isn't a passion then it's all going to be for naught. And the unfortunate part of that is that the schools COMPLETELY forget to mention that this is a BUSINESS first and the art end of it is 10% of what they will be doing with their lives. So the schools will focus on the wrong 10% cause that's what schools do. Start your daughter now thinking about this like an entrepreneur. An entrepreneur heading into the worst job climate we've seen since the depression and into a field crowed with amateurs funding their businesses off of the fruits of other paying careers who are so happy to have a creative outlet from their boring day jobs. http://www.amazon.com/Best-Business-Practices-Photographers-Second/dp/1435454294/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322763829&sr=8-1 Think like a business person first and a movie maker, photographer or whatever second. That's not living the dream but it is the only way to survive and not drive yourself mad. The college myth of career in the arts goes something like this: -Learn how to take pretty pictures -? -Profit! If you want a sobering look into what the business end of it looks like today: (will post link from POTN here later, can't get to it atm) Also it's not just photographers. The simple truth is that we've automated and technologized so much of our world that we simply don't need as many people doing laborious tasks any more and that means there are more people looking into the academic, arts, white collar business and other non laborious careers. Any time you see that some formerly expensive area of work has been democratized, recognize that means that professionals are out on their asses. http://www.petapixel.com/2011/11/29/cnn-lays-off-photojournalists-citing-the-accessibility-of-quality-cameras/ Only those who are thinking with their head and not relying on old business models are going to be able to survive.

 

[Al.Anderson]

I haven't had a chance to get back to this in a few days; but thanks, the information is appreciated. I don't think the passion or the attitude is going to be a problem for her. Ironically enough, it's a bit the other way around - some of her professors are giving her grief because she wants to write for television. They say things like "that's just a commercial cop out to make money". She thinks (but doesn't say), "Yes it is, and I love it!" It works out my wife had a brilliant idea and wrote the head of the campus TV studio my daughter works at. (I hate it when she has better ideas than I do ...) This professor was very nice and wrote back with the recommendation of the Canon EOS Rebel T2i with The EF 75-300 mm f/4 - 5.6 III Telephoto Zoom Lens. He explained that this is what the hot trend is with the other kids since the same lends on a video camera would be a bazillion dollars. (Not a quote.) What do you think of that camera? ($800 Amazon) It may be moot, because it seems like she really wants for Christmas is Final Draft. I'm trying to decide if I want to humor that request or tell her to use Celtx for free. Note: If a moderator could move this to the Photography Forum I be be grateful. Thanks.

 

[Sam Posten]

Looks like it was moved. And you are quite welcome for my input, but i caution that it's given as an outsider to the industry but as someone who follows it and related ones closely. Final draft is up on the Mac App Store for $199. you can buy it for half of that if you get it direct but then you don't get the updates and free copies on all of your macs. A much cheaper alternative is available called Movie Draft, it's pretty good and only $29. It's not the industry standard of course, but that's why it's got to compete on price: http://www.macgasm.net/2011/05/25/stop-thinking-script-write-movie-draft-se/ If you are thinking DSLR instead of a dedicated camcorder I'd seriously consider the T3i, 7D or 5D2 (in exponentially increasing costs) over the T2i. Realize that there are significant tradeoffs between an HDDSLR and a camcorder, and that would require volumes for me to cover. But you need to understand at a minimum that they are fundamentally different beasts and have different pros and cons. Obviously with the SLR you get the advantage of putting on lenses, even from other vendors, many of which can get you faster F stops for thin DOF and fast shooting in the dark. But you lose stabilization. And the files are in much more dense format. I'm a nikon guy but there is no question that Canon fully groks dslr video better than Nikon does so far. N is getting better. But there are more canon focused shooters here who can give you better than I can. http://www.learningdslrvideo.com/t3i-vs-t2i/

 

[Scott Merryfield]

If you go the dSLR route for video, I would recommend either the Canon Rebel T3i or 60D as a starting point. The 7D's advantages are more with still photography, and the other two models have the same 18MP sensor as the 7D. The extra cost for the 7D's features would mostly be wasted if the primary use was video. FYI, the 7D is my primary camera. As Sam mentioned, though, using a dSLR for video is a completely different endeavor than using a camcorder. There are some creative advantages -- thin depth of field, varying shutter speeds, lots of interchangeable lens choices, etc. -- but it's a more cumbersome process. However, my viewpoint comes as someone who is a serious amateur still photographer and doesn't shoot very much video. Serious videographers really love what a dSLR can bring to video shooting. I would avoid the Canon 75-300mm lens the professor recommended. It's considered one of Canon's poorest lenses. Instead, I would look at either (from least expensive to most) a Canon EFS 55-250mm IS, Tamron 70-300mm VC, or Canon 70-200mm f/4 L IS lens for her telephoto needs. The 55-250 lens is about the same price as the very old, discontinued 75-300, but is much better optically. A lot of dealers will throw the 75-300 into a kit offering -- they are just trying to get rid of stock, as nobody that knows anything about Canon lenses will buy them.

 

[Al.Anderson]

Sam & Scott, thanks for the additional info. If go this route I'll definite go with the T3i. (That's the limit of the budget, so comparisions to the others were easy.) These are film students (or in my daughter's case, psuedo film students), so I think the tradeoffs between camcorder and dSLR are known and accepted - but again, I appreciate the warning. I'm taking the lens recommendation to heart. But I'm curious, when you say the 300mm is a poor lens, do you mean optical quality, or something else? As far as the editing SW goes, I had pretty much made up my mind that if I didn't splurge for the inductry standard product I would go with the popular open source alternative. I can't see any reason for not going one way or the other. But if I'm not considering something important, I'm definitely still open. Decision is this weekend. I usually have my mind much more made up by now. Thanks again for the help.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

I'm taking the lens recommendation to heart. But I'm curious, when you say the 300mm is a poor lens, do you mean optical quality, or something else?

Yes, optically it is considered one of Canon's poorest lenses (and has lousy auto focus performance), and has not been in production for many years. There are still many copies laying around in warehouses, though, so it gets thrown into many of the dealer kit offerings as a cheap telephoto. The phrase "they cannot give 'em away" comes to mind here. The Canon EF 75-300mm should not be confused with the much newer (and still in production) 70-300mm IS lens, which is much better optically, but also costs around $500. At that price point, the new Tamron 70-300mm VC lens is a better lens for the price. I used to own the Canon 70-300mm, and it's weaknesses were softness at 300mm and rather mediocre auto focus performance.

 

[Sam Posten]

Yep, I've had both the Canon and Nikon 70-300 and they are night and day. The IS on the Canon is loud and the results at 300 are not impressive. The Nikon version, which I got for $345, is the best bang for the buck lens Nikon makes and is my most used outdoor lens. I'd love a 70-200VR but at $2400 I'm not heading down that route any time soon.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

The Canon 70-300mm IS was the only decent choice for a telephoto lens with image stabilization for Canon when I bought it. Later, I ended up replacing the lens with a Canon 70-200mm f/4 L IS, and the difference was amazing. There was a noticeable improvement in image quality throughout it's focal range (even with a 1.4x TC attached), and the auto focus performance is the best of any lens I've tried. Of course, the cost was over $900 then, and now is approximately $1,100, so it's a big price jump. I also added a 100-400mm L IS last year for when I need more reach (usually for wildlife), but that's another $1,400.

 

[DavidJ]

Lots of places seem to be running specials on T3i kits so it might be a good time to buy.

 

[Sam Posten]

Or it might mean it's due to be replaced soon =p Canon actually rolls through consumer refreshes pretty quickly, so my vote is "both". Either way I caution anyone who is looking into it: PLEASE do not go nuts trying to find the worlds greatest bargain on a kit. Buy the set from a reputable site like Costco, B&H, Adorama, or Amazon (direct, not marketplace) and never look at camera prices again. Down this path lies madness.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

Either way I caution anyone who is looking into it: PLEASE do not go nuts trying to find the worlds greatest bargain on a kit. Buy the set from a reputable site like Costco, B&H, Adorama, or Amazon (direct, not marketplace) and never look at camera prices again. Down this path lies madness.

This is the best advice in the entire thread. The Internet or mail order "dealers" that advertise amazing "too good to be true" prices are just ripoff artists. All my Internet camera business has been through B&H, Adorama or Amazon. They each have very competitive prices, excellent customer service, and you will actually get the product you ordered.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

Al, If you did end up buying a Canon dSLR, you may be interested in Amazon's Gold Box Deal of the Day today. It's the Canon EFS 55-250mm telephoto lens for $144.

 

[Al.Anderson]

Thanks once again for the additional posts and info. I did see the lens deal, but the savings over the package was only ~$17. I've decided to go with the T3i (and 150mm lens), but am going to wait for for her next birthday in a few months. Of course, I tend to weaken as Christmas gets closer ...

 

[Sam Posten]

um.... 150mm lens? Which one? None of them are a terrific choice for cinema....

 

[Al.Anderson]

um.... 150mm lens? Which one? None of them are a terrific choice for cinema....

Oops, that was a fat finger, I meant the 250 you guys pointed me to. And I did get it. I weakened even sooner than usual this year. Thanks for all your help!

 

[Sam Posten]

OK, you mean the 55-250, you can't just call a zoom by it's longest tele end, makes no sense =) Good luck, not familiar with that one at all. But never hurts to have more reach even if you need a lot of light for it to be its best.