Subwoofer upgrade, need opinions (1 Viewer)

[elwaylite]

I was torn between a new rcvr, or a sub, and I think people have helped me decide my newer Denon is just fine with the other options I was looking at. So, here is a question about subs, as well as my room layout. In the below image, the distance from my seated position to the wall behind the display is about 11ft, so it's a rectangular living room. Width is about 22 feet. The Sub-12 has served me well (see my sig for all my audio gear), but it's a budget based boomer, downfiring with rear port (I keep it from the wall pretty well), that I had to put on a pc of MDF to get better sound. Here are it's specs, and my options (these may not be all out there, but are my only current options for certain reasons), please let me know what you think:

Klipsch Sub-12 [COLOR=FF00AA][COLOR=FF00AA](my current sub)[/COLOR][/COLOR] AMPLIFIER: BASH(r) digital hybrid AMPLIFIER POWER: FTC Rated Power: 300 watts continuous @ 1% THD, Dynamic Power: 650 watts DRIVE COMPONENTS: 12" (30.5cm) fiber-composite cone, down-firing woofer ENCLOSURE TYPE: Bass-reflex via rear-firing port FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 24-120Hz +/-3dB MAXIMUM ACOUSTIC OUTPUT: 117dB @ 30Hz 1/8 space, 1m WEIGHT: 40 lbs. (18.2kg) Velodyne DEQ-12R Class D Amp 225w RMS 14.6-240hz 61lbs 3/5yr warranty http://velodyne.com/pdf/deq-r/deq-12r_details.pdf Velodyne DEQ-15R Class D 750w RMS 14-240hz 75lbs http://velodyne.com/pdf/deq-r/deq-15r_details.pdf Definitive Technology SuperCube I (or II) 10" woofer with 10" low bass radiator 13 Hz – 200 Hz 1500 watts (I assume NOT RMS) 5 Years; 3 Years for Amplifiers 70 lbs Klipsch SW-311 AMPLIFIER POWER: BASH® Digital Hybrid DRIVE COMPONENTS: 10" (25.4cm) Active / Dual 10" Passive non-resonant Woven Fiberglass drivers FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 22Hz-120Hz ± 3dB WEIGHT: 37lbs (16.8kg) Thanks again for any input, I'm kinda leaning towards the 15" Velodyne, but Im not sure if it's "overkill" with my setup, or if that is possible? The Supercube I also has my eye.

 

[Robert_J]

If you have to choose from that list, the Velodyne 15". There is no such thing as overkill, only lowering distortion during extreme LFE.

 

[elwaylite]

Thanks. I'm not a huge audio guy, spent more time with the video side. I assumed audyssey would take into account the size and performance and act as necessary, and the larger sub would just perform better than I am now used too. Sent using Tapatalk

 

[elwaylite]

OK, so i was talked into more looking Im kinda centering on the HSU VTF2 MK4 or the Oultaw LFM-1 Plus. I guess the Outlaw was actually designed my HSU, so they should perform differently. Big difference is the Outlaw is downfiring woofer and ports, and I have carpet over concrete. The HSU has rear ports and forward woofer, but it needs to sit 6-10" from wall. Price is great on both. Comments?

 

[Robert_J]

Specs have them with an identical frequency response. Do you want down or forward firing? Woofer orientation has little to no impact. If one was better then all sub manufacturers would build the same way. Another sub to consider - http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/legend.html

 

[Robert_J]

I assumed audyssey would take into account the size and performance and act as necessary, and the larger sub would just perform better than I am now used too.

It takes into account output but not frequency response. It also doesn't factor in distortion. Both have an impact on how it sounds to YOU but not Audyssey.

 

[elwaylite]

Specs have them with an identical frequency response. Do you want down or forward firing? Woofer orientation has little to no impact. If one was better then all sub manufacturers would build the same way. Another sub to consider - http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/legend.html

I think I want down, just because of how close the port is to the wall, and I have two dogs I did look at epic, and just from my reading, it IS a great sub. Only thing that kept me back towards outlaw is my use is almost 100% movie, so low bass and rumble is more important to me and than being musically accurate. I know the Epic can beat too, but most have said Outlaw/HSU over it for what Im wanting.

 

[Robert_J]

my use is almost 100% movie, so low bass and rumble is more important to me and than being musically accurate.

Why is accurate so bad for movies? Don't you want to hear the low frequency effects like the sound engineer of the movie intended them to sound? That's why my dual 15" subs are really overkill but it keeps distortion to a minimum. I've EQed the sub flat to 17hz so it is accurate. I can listen to an acoustic bass song and it sounds like an acoustic bass. Exploding Transformers sound like exploding Transformers. An accurate sub is an accurate sub. It's doesn't know music or movies. It converts electrical signals to sound.

 

[elwaylite]

Well, I wasn't descriptive in what I meant. Like the HSU, which can be set for max extension, lower bass and thought to be better for HT, or plugging of the port for higher max end, music. Being mine is 100% movie, i feel getting down lower is more important.

 

[Robert_J]

You have to understand the roll-off of ported subs vs. sealed subs. Below the tuning frequency, ported subs roll off at 18 db/octave. Sealed subs can roll off between 6db / octave to 12db / octave depending on the Qtc of the sub. Yes, the sealed sub may have a -3db at a higher frequency but if your room is small, you will get more bass down low than a ported sub with a lower tuning. My sealed subs have a Qtc of .5 which gives me about 8db / octave roll-off. I've added an EQ (works great with sealed subs) to make sure it is flat to 17hz and my -3db point is about 14 hz.

 

[elwaylite]

Thanks. I have a huge learning curve with subs. I got a good reply from HSU, and it was fast too. Looks like Im gonna order the VTF-2 MK4 tonight. I was curious about Audyssey with that model, and they gave me a good explanation. "I would set the volume on the sub to about 9 o'clock, one port open, EQ1, Q=0.7 for the Audyssey run, and then change it to EQ2, both ports open and fine tune by ear with the Q control."

 

[elwaylite]

VTF-2 MK4 is on the way, should be here 11/9, super excited.

 

[elwaylite]

Real happy with the sound. Deep, tight bass and it does everything better than the Sub-12 it replaced. Watched Pirates 4 last night and it jammed the musical scenes perfectly, when the Klipsch probably woulda bottomed out.