Subjective listening evaluation and/or comparison: VMPS Larger to SVS PB-2 Plus (1 Viewer)

[Parker Clack]

Mike:

I would just go ahead and get the pair of PB2+ and let the bass nirvana (and moon howling) begin!

If you want you can always send me the information on your HSU subs and I will list them on the Used Subwoofer page.

Parker

 

[steve nn]

Now that your all locked in Mike. Be sure to state in your add that the drivers have never been over driven and always handled with kid gloves also.:wink:

 

[Edward J M]

Are you saying the STF-3 should cost even less and still compete with or best the PB1-ISD?

The cost for overseas labor is obscenely low compared to American labor. SVS could get drivers, amps, and enclosures built in China for literally 10-15% of the cost in America. Even after shipping/handling and import fees are added, the cost for SVS to manufacture in China would be less than 1/2 of the cost to build in the USA.

To offer the built in China STF-3 (which by all external appearances is a knock-off of the PB1-ISD, albeit introduced two years later) for the same price as the built in USA PB1-ISD just demonstrates how high the profit margins are for Hsu.

I remember in the not too distant past, the VTF-3 was selling for $850 plus shipping (say $40). Now the improved version is selling for $800, including shipping.

Hsu only dropped the price of the VTF-3 because SVS was draining the oil out of his tank with its Plus series of subs.

Now you tell me where that 15% cost reduction came from when manufacturing/design engineers would kill for even a fraction of a percent reduction in production costs.

I'll tell you - it came right off the top and Hsu is still making decent money on the VTF-3 at $800.

So yes, the STF-3 built in China should sell for considerably less than its American built competition if all the savings really are being passed onto the consumer. But they aren't - hence Tom's quip about the almighty buck.

The PB1-ISD is priced at $600 because that is the absolute lowest price SVS can sell it for and still stay in business.

The STF-3 is priced at $600 ONLY because the PB1-ISD is priced at $600. Hsu could probably sell it for $400 and still make a profit.

Back to our regularly scheduled program.........

WayneO confirms what I posted way back on page 1 of this thread: The PB2+ in the 20 Hz tune offers 3-4 dB more headroom than the 20-39PC+ and should nicely meet Roger's needs for more bass headroom.

And Mike, the PB2+ will rip the pants off your dual VTF-3 - it's a real bruiser.

Regards,

 

[Zack_R]

Mike, I'm looking forward to your review of the two companies products. I know you are intending it to be subjective and if there are substantial differences between the two it may be easy to pick a winner. But I'm thinking it will be a close call, particularly with music. Not because one is more musical than the other but because even loud music is far subdued compared to movie volume and with room interactions it can be tough trying to figure out what's going on when you hear subtle differences.

If it is a close call I'd recommend using the 1/12 octave test tones that alot of us HTFers use to plot the frequency response. Ideally the response should be at the same db level you play your music during the test. A slight raise or dip at low,mid and upper bass can help quantify the subtle differences you may hear between the two subs.

I recently performed a battery of test with my set-up using these tones. One of the test I ran was the Large + sub setting that some users like. I have performed many tests before but never this test. Prior to testing, I did on occasion run my large setting plus sub and did hear a difference but didn't quite like it so I reverted back to the small + sub that is generally recommended. I never graphed it (until now) so I wasn't sure why I didn't like it as much but I couldn't put my finger on it.

Well now I know. My mains are old acoustic suspension Sansui's (lattic wood grill covers, probably some 70's era speaker I bought used years ago) with 15" woofers. They can play a 20 Hz tone though there in room roll-off begins around 53 hz.

Large + Sub and Small + sub (80 Hz crossover)stay near indentical in output from 94 Hz to 50 hz using 80 db at 94 hz as a reference. From 48 to 44ish Hz the Large + mains are down 1-3 dbs. Room gain gets them back on par with the small + sub seting, at around 42 Hz. From 39Hz to 16.8 Hz the gap between Large + sub and Small + sub grows from a 2db gap at 39Hz to an 8 db gap at 16.8 Hz. The critical low end music range (31-38 Hz) so common in pop / techno / and rap music was around 4-5 dbs less with the large plus sub setting.

So in my book what you have here is severe cancellation below 40 Hz. As has been mentioned many times by Tom V. and others, sometimes musical subs, when measured, have the characteristic that my large + sub setting gave me i.e the low end is rolled off. Depending on individual tastes and room, some people may prefer the large + sub setting but in my little experiment running this configuration almost completely nullified the advatage of having a sub. In fact, from 30 hz to 20 hz the large speakers alone performed better than with the subwoofer (SVS Ultra)!

Without the graphs a reviewer (hypothetifcally speaking of course) may have characterized my large plus setting as the optimal setting for music. They may have used terms like tighter, faster or punchier. And who's to argue with what they like? The thing is though, by at least having the numbers one can better understand what is happening by removing some of the guess work.

Regardless, I truly look forward to your feedback. With or without numbers it's sure to be a good read. I own two subs myself and I can ceratinly appreciate the time and energy it takes for us amateurs to do our comparos.

 

[WayneO]

And Mike, the PB2+ will rip the pants off your dual VTF-3 - it's a real bruiser.

This thing is a POUNDER, I'm watching AOTC right now it's a new experience. It's almost overboard at this point, even with the same cablibration as the PC+, I gotta go down a db or three cause the output is just too rediculous. OK, I'm startin to sound like the typical RAH RAH SVS guy, but I'm stunned.

I'm curious, if I had the PC+ bottom at -4(one movie scene) and I have gone up to +2db with the PB2+ with no bottoming yet(I'm really not trying to bottom it, just that this scene pushed the PC+ to the max and help spur the upgrade), does that correlate to 6db higher output or is there more involved than that?

 

[EdS]

As someone who "lurks" in these forums, I have spent the past couple of months trying to decide which subwoofer I was going to choose from SVS, Hsu, or Adire. I have read as many reviews on the various forums along with independent reviews also. My requirements were that the sub be box-shaped, priced around $600, and be relatively flat down to 20Hz.

The point of this post in that all of the reading I've been doing, it always amazes me how things deterioate to this level, and IMO it's typically driven there by the "SVS crowd". A couple of observations:

1) "You mean the Amercian built pb-1isd against chinese built stf-3? . . ."

Isn't this really an oversimplification of a very complex issue? I know there is a lot of suffering going on because of current economic conditions, but historically we always blame the cause of these conditions on the easiest targets. Suppose Hsu sells more subwoofers, makes higher margins, and uses these margins to actually employ more Americans than SVS employs (I don't know whether this is true or not, but I think that it is quite possible that Hsu is a larger employer than SVS). Would it then be OK that the Hsu subs are built outside of this country? I work in NJ, at one point we closed the manufacturing plant and moved operations to PA as it was more cost efficient. I guarantee you that the people who lost their jobs did not care one bit that other Americans now had their old jobs. Did you realize that China actually has lost millions of manufacturing jobs over the past few years? It's because the workers and factories are becoming more efficient and productive. Anyone remember the early 80's when we blamed Japan auto industry for the high unemployment and economic conditions?

2) "To offer the built in China STF-3 (which by all external appearances is a knock-off of the PB1-ISD, albeit introduced two years later) for the same price as the built in USA PB1-ISD just demonstrates how high the profit margins are for Hsu. I remember in the not too distant past, the VTF-3 was selling for $850 plus shipping (say $40). Now the improved version is selling for $800, including shipping."

And here it is I thought that the STF-3 was based off of the VTF-3. Now I learn that the whole STF series was driven by a reaction to the PB1-ISD. Funny how no one in this thread said that the SVS cylinders and boxes are clones of the Hsu TN series and VTF series. And let me get this straight, you're upset that Hsu has dropped the price of some of their subs?

3) "I just watched as our local elections voted down almost every single issue regarding Police, drug task forces, school, aid programs to the needy, park/recreational issues, etc."

IMO, these issues are voted down because it is just about the only tax in America that can be voted upon. We don't have much say for our income tax, sales tax, etc. If you're a property owner, it is probably short-sighted to vote down these issues as they directly affect property values, something you'll care about when it is time to sell the property.

4) "The PB1-ISD is priced at $600 because that is the absolute lowest price SVS can sell it for and still stay in business. The STF-3 is priced at $600 ONLY because the PB1-ISD is priced at $600. Hsu could probably sell it for $400 and still make a profit."

Has either Hsu or SVS shared their financial data with you? Seems like you have some insight as to their margins, rate structures, number of employees, operating expenses, R&D budgets, marketing expenses, etc. I don't know how anyone could make this kind of statement without that information.

In summary, look at the hostility and how off topic this thread and many more like it become whenever anyone suggests that there are other subs out there which might perform as well as an SVS. I know I resent the rather overt implication that I am not a loyal American if I purchase a Hsu instead of an SVS. That it is personal affront while wrapping SVS in an American flag, I can do without that so called type of patriotism.

 

[Zack_R]

I'm curious, if I had the PC+ bottom at -4(one movie scene) and I have gone up to +2db with the PB2+ with no bottoming yet(I'm really not trying to bottom it, just that this scene pushed the PC+ to the max and help spur the upgrade), does that correlate to 6db higher output or is there more involved than that?

What tune are you running?

I'd estimate that in the 25 Hz setting the PB2+ can play frequencies above 25 Hz 7-8 dbs louder than the 2039. The 25 HZ tune would also keep driver excursion reduced in the demanding 28-35 hz range the 2039 driver has to play in. Bottoming out doesn't necessarily occur below the tuning point.

 

[CurtisSC]

Mike Sloan,

I would like to share some final thoughts with you:

i)The VTF-3 that you and I have is no longer in production. It will be replaced very soon by the VTF-3 MKII, which has 100 watts more power and a very nice piano black gloss finish. The new VTF-3 MKII is really better in every way than the original, and $50 cheaper to boot. The VTF-3 MKII design goal is to provide very extended frequency response, variable tuning, high output, high quality of sound, a luxurious finish, all for a very good price.

ii)The first generation VTF-3 used in pairs is not something that Hsu would recommend in terms of pure performance at that price. Two TN1220HO’s with their 800 watt amp will honestly smoke the dual first gen VTF-3’s in terms of pure SPL’s at 20Hz, and they are more musical too (I have had a chance to listen to the TN subs, so I am not just basing my conclusion on hearsay). This is Hsu’s best performing package at that price, just as the PB2+ is SVS’s best performing sub at it’s price. Some are turned off by the cylinder though, and that is where I move to my next comment.

iii)Hsu Research recognizes the fact that there is room in their lineup for a flagship subwoofer shaped as a box that will play louder than two VTF-3’s and will sound better and offer more features too, priced at a level in between a single and dual VTF-3’s. They are soon beginning development on a more expensive flagship line of products, and hope to have them available sometime next year. If you look more carefully at the Hsu lineup, you will notice the trends in performance as price increases. The VTF-3 is more than double the performance of the VTF-2 for less than double the price. The two TN1220HO pack with 800 watt amp might be quadruple the performance of the VTF-3 for double the price. Expect the same pattern with their flagship models.

iv)Different people have different ideas about what constitutes desireable bass. A single VTF-3 is more than enough SPL for my tastes and for my room. It is one of the best sounding subs I have ever listened to (other than the TN1220HO), and I can say that with confidence even after having compared it head to head with a 20-39PC+. What impresses me most about the VTF-3 is the driver control and detailed sound. That is my experience, your mileage may vary. The people who buy the VTF-3 MKII and VTF-3R in the future will be looking not only for top sound quality and high SPL and deep bass, but also for top cabinet and finish quality at a good price. They are a different type of buyer than those who will go for the larger, less fancy finished and more powerful dual driver sub. Judging from your responses on the forum, Mike, I think you will be plenty pleased with a PB2+. Your happiness and peace of mind is the only thing that really matters. The PB2+ certainly looks to be a very good value for what it does. This effort does not take away from the great things that Hsu has been able to accomplish with the VTF-3, VTF-3R, VTF-3 MKII, and other models in their lineup. I consider the PB2 and PB2+ to cater to a different set up people than the VTF-3 MKII and VTF-3R because of differences in cabinet finish, size, and cost. At their respective price points, they are both very good values unquestionably.





Tom V,

Let me give you my truly honest views on what I see at Hsu Research now:

i) Better fit and finish. The newest Hsu products are the best built and most nicely finished Hsu products ever. The piano black finish takes a whole week to complete, and Hsu is offering this finish on products priced as low as the VTF-2 MKII ($499) and VTF-3 MKII ($799).

ii) Better performance. The newest Hsu products are more powerful and better performers than ever before.

iii) Better value for the money. The newest Hsu products are cheaper than before, and yet have better performance and better finish than ever before. The VTF-3 MKII is a prime example: 40% more power, a superior piano black finish, all the newest advances, for $50 less than the older speckled finish VTF-3. This is Hsu passing on savings to the customer, and then some.

iv) More hunger to excel at any price point. Hsu has made a strong effort to listen to the demands of his customers. He has come out with a line of STF subwoofers that break new ground in performance attainable at that price. He also has a desire to build flagship subwoofers in box and cylinder form next year in order to satisfy those with very discriminating tastes and those with larger budgets.

What consumers should know is that quality control and working conditions are first rate in the Hsu factory, up to ISO9001 standards. What consumers should also know is that Hsu has been a staple in the audio industry since and the early 1990’s. Hsu Research has provided many jobs to Americans since that time, and this has not stopped to this day. I have had the luxury of visiting the Hsu Research facility in California, and this is just one of the small ways Hsu helps the American economy. Dr. Hsu has personally worked with and consulted with numerous American companies in order to help these businesses grow and in order to give the American consumers better performance and better value for their hard-earned money. He has had a value-oriented philosophy since the first day he ever sold a sub. He is a good man with a good heart.

These are my final thoughts in this thread. I hope that everyone can appreciate this side of the story. Thanks for reading.

 

[Roger Eckert]

Guys
When I started this thread I had no idea it would get this much attention. It's been really intersting watching the different twists and turns this thread has taken. I've gotten excellent SVS feedback
and a limited amount of VMPS feedback, albeit what I did get was very helpful and enlightening. If possible I'd like to hear
more on the VMPS Larger and PB-2 Plus, if anyone cares to share. Has there ever been a shootout involving these two? HSU info can be dropped since it never made it to my short list. I'm not sure how HSU even worked into this thread, or for that matter the economy and US vs foreign made. Oh well. Finally, do you think we can focus on solutions members have found to solve leaky room/inadequate bass output problems similar to mine using either the VMPS Larger or SVS PB-2 Plus subs?
Thanks
Roger

 

[Mike Sloan]

To make a bit of a generalization, the dual TNs would be the better choice for a music dominated system, and the VTF-3s would be best for home theater. Both are quite suited for either application--we are talking about differences that are too subtle for many people.

Made me feel good about my purchase...certainly didn't seem to think "Two TN1220HO’s with their 800(you mean 400W each) watt amp would SMOKE the dual first gen VTF-3’s."

But anyway...live and learn!

Curtis, I feel you honestly believe in HSU and certainly are a good advocate for their product. Do you have any relatives working for HSU...the quality of your prose regarding them is commendable and would lend one to think that there is more to this story than mere customer satisfaction.

So you say HSU will produce a super duper flagship model in the future...how do yo know this and what will it be?

 

[Mike Sloan]

I know I resent the rather overt implication that I am not a loyal American if I purchase a Hsu instead of an SVS.

which HSU are you getting?

This is all good stuff and provides comic relief...I for one love how these threads start and become something entirely different....this will be closed soon...I feel it!

 

[WayneO]

The point of this post in that all of the reading I've been doing, it always amazes me how things deterioate to this level, and IMO it's typically driven there by the "SVS crowd".

Everyone who doesn't champion SVS just loves to hate the SVS guys......why......cause we love our product! And then we come to defend it when it's attacked! Get off my cloud........

The only subs that should be talked about here its SVS and VMPS.......how Hsu got in here, I lost track. Hope new posts that actually help you come in.

 

[CurtisSC]

Mike, you brought me back!

The two TN1220HO and 800 watt amp pack has a very large edge over dual VTF-3’s in groundpounding SPL at 20Hz and under. This is because of the extra power (which the Hsu 12 inch driver can easily make use of), and because of the extra long port on the TN1220HO. The port is the length of an arm, really impressive. On top of that, the TN1220HO cylinder is virtually free from resonance and coloration. Sasha was making a very big generalization about movies that do not contain much content below 25Hz, and he was also assuming that most people do not push their subs to the limit.

Curtis, I feel you honestly believe in HSU and certainly are a good advocate for their product. Do you have any relatives working for HSU...the quality of your prose regarding them is commendable and would lend one to think that there is more to this story than mere customer satisfaction.

Not sure what you are getting at here. Maybe the fact that I am asian? Well, I am Asian. but that's really the only ancestry I share with Hsu. I learned of Hsu through research when shopping for a sub. If you look at my past posts, up until when I actually demoed a 20-39PC+ in my home, I was only one to say "try Hsu". Afterwards, I have become certainly no more of an advocate of Hsu than some of you have been of SVS. Compare some of your past posts, Edward's, or Steve's, to mine. If there is more to my story, you would think there is more to some of yours as well.

As for a new flagship, would you agree that is the next logical step?

As soon as someone challenges SVS's proclaimed superiority, be it Hsu or another company, that is when feathers get ruffled and the comic relief begins.

What is funny is the fact that you brought Hsu into the thread, and a negative comment was posted by TV....and that is when I began with "advocate" posts. It is obvious that Tom does not like Hsu, I don't hold that against him, he has his reasons. I have had some great email exchanges with Ron, but I suspect some SVS advocates don't like me much, and others have written apologizing. Not a problem, I have lived with worse forms of prejudice, so this is no big deal.

 

[Roger Eckert]

To Moderator:
I'm satisfied this topic has pretty well run its course. I wouldn't mind hearing more from the VMPS owners, but since the HSU/SVS argument clan can't seem to stop bickering and are unwilling to focus on the topic, I'd like to request that this thread I started now be ended. I appreciate the contributions of all those who read and stayed on the topic for me. I'll do my best to do the same for you.
Sincerely
Roger

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>I know I resent the rather overt implication that I am not a loyal American if I purchase a Hsu instead of an SVS. That it is personal affront while wrapping SVS in an American flag, I can do without that so called type of patriotism.

 

[Chriss M]

Roger,

I own an VMPS larger sub. I have not heard any SVS subs other than my old 20-39CS ISD, so i cannot make any comparisons between the models you are looking at. But, i figured i would mention it since there does not seem to be many VMPS owners here. Please let me know if you have any questions about the sub.

 

[Roger Eckert]

OK, I'll hang just a bit longer since we're back on topic.
Chriss, as I've mentioned I have a very open, leaky room. I'm trying to find a music/HT sub to do a good job handling the lower frequencies. What size room is your sub in, does the room have many openings, what amp are you running the larger with, and how does the larger compare to the
old SVS you had for music and HT? (I know, it's not a PB-2 Plus)
Thanks
Roger

 

[Edward J M]

I thought I mentioned in a previous post it was a 20hz tune, but here it is again. I'd still appreciate an opinion or answer about what the volume output means for sub output...is it equal db for db?

WayneO:

In the conventional tunes, the PB2+ was designed at the outset to be basically bulletproof.

Eventually all conventional subwoofers reach a point where the input/output ratio becomes non-linear. They begin to suffer from power compression and port compression even if they are not outright "bottoming out".

It is entirely possible this is starting to occur in the PB2+ in the 20 Hz tune. At what is already a pretty extreme playback level (enough to bottom a PC+) you might be able to dial in an additional 6 dB of volume with the Master Volume control, but it might not necessarily equate to an additional 6 dB of sound pressure level from the PB2+. This phenomenon is somewhat frequency dependent, though, as Zack alludes.

If you think the PB2+ is strong in the 20 Hz tune, try it in the 25 Hz tune. It will dig to about 22 Hz in-room before the SS filter cuts the fun, and this should be adequate for nearly all of the source material in AOTC. Most of the waterfall charts I've seen for this DVD show the strong bass to be in the 25-35 Hz region.

Regards,

 

[CurtisSC]

Tom V,

I honestly do not agree with that rationalization. Because of the actions of two or three people that you do not agree with, you are not endeared to Hsu? Speaking as a competitor is one thing, but to justify actions and comments based on a couple fanatics (pro-Hsu or pro-SVS), I'm not sure that I agree with that. Hsu does not condone this type behavior, and flamebait and unsubstantiated rumor is not allowed to be posted at the Hsu forum (assuming that is what you ard referring to). They really try hard to run a clean ship over there. And what makes you think I condone this type of behavior? I do not like to see any company be criticized, especially if the criticism is not deserved.

I may be pro-Hsu, but I do not hate SVS. Is there anything in this thread that leads you to believe so? If there is, I will gladly retract or re-phrase it. Please let me know.

 

[Parker Clack]

The author of this thread has requested its contents be kept to comparisons between the VMPS Larger and SVS PB-2 Plus. He has not requested any information on any other sub manufacturer or any other head to head comparisons.

If this thread cannot get back on course to discuss what the author has requested information about then it will be closed.