Sub to match Axiom speakers? (1 Viewer)

[Ryan Muldoon]

I am currently looking into purchasing my first home theater/stereo. I am a college student, so I am on a relative budget. However, I am the sort that would prefer to spend a little extra on something that is good quality, and will last me a while. I'd like to have what I purchase last me a few years. So with that in mind, here is my current planned setup:
Mains: Axiom M22Ti (from axiom's factory outlet) $320
Center: Axiom VP100 (factory outlet) $176
Rears: Axiom M3Ti (factory outlet) $220
Recevier: Not entirely certain yet....the possibilities are the Outlaw 1050, Onkyo 600, Denon 1802 (or 2802 if I can find a deal), or the HK AVR 320 (or 520 if I can get a deal). $400-$550, I'd imagine
I am not sure about what a good sub would be is. I would like a sub that will complement my speakers for music, but I would obviously also like to enjoy DVDs and such. I've been reading many good things about SVS subs, and Hsu VTF-2's as well. But I don't want to "overpower" my speakers, or get something that won't be a good match. Axiom's subs seem to not be that great for the money in comparison to SVS or Hsu. I've read that there is a sony sub for ~$135 that is pretty good, but I'd like to know what "pretty good" is relative to. I really would prefer to not go above $1600 for everything...ideally I'd like to be closer to the $1200 mark, but I don't know how realistic that is. I'm willing to spend (some) more for better sound that will last a number of years, but I don't want to buy a sub that is way the hell better than the rest of my system. I'm just trying to get the most quality for my dollar. Could anyone offer me some advice? Thanks!

 

[Dan_Jones]

Hi Ryan, great setup you have picked out. I have a similar dorm room setup, except M50's instead of M22's.

As for subwoofers, from everything you've probably read here, SVS is a big favorite and would match your speakers just fine, the VTF-2 is also a big favorite and should do the same. These subs are of much more quality then the Sony 12", but I guess it depends on how much you want to spend, versus performance. The Sony is often said to be overly boomy for music, but fine for HT (as music normally requires a tighter, quicker sub). The Dharman is another quality sub in the similar price range to the SVS and HSU. I really don't think any sub you buy with the speakers you have chosen are going to overpower your setup; after calibration everything should sound just fine (remember to calibrate with a radioshack SPL meter and a setup disc like AVIA, Video Essentials or the new S&V disc, especially in a smaller dorm area, it'll help). You have extremely good speakers picked out, no sub is going to hurt their performance.

As for receivers, I'm runing my setup on the now discontinued Onkyo TX-DS595. If you're fine with waiting for the Onkyo 600, I thik that would be your best bet feature wise, as the Outlaw and Denon's you mentioned are last years models and therefore don't have the format suport of the new Onkyo (although the Onkyo doesn't have preouts).

Overall I think you'll be very pleased with the Axioms; if you've got the money, sure spend it on a quality sub like the VTF-2 or SVS, you won't be dissapointed.

 

[Dustin B]

I'd consider dropping the VP100 and M22 for M3Ti's all the way around. The M3Ti will make a better center (off axis that is). And I don't think the performance gain of the M22 over the M3 will justify the price difference.
So Let's say then 220+220+130(maybe 110)= 570 + 500 for the receiver takes you to 1100. That leaves you up to $500 for the sub.
I wouldn't worry about the sub being better than your speakers. Not possible in the $500 price bracket. You can never have to much sub (you can always turn it down :p)). Although I would say the Sony is not good enough for the equipment you are considering.
The Rava and VTF2 are definately great subs for that price range and will work well with the Axiom speakers.
Another option would be to contact Kyle Richards of Acoustic Visions. He will costum build you the best sub he can within your budget. He offers just raw drivers/amps with some advice. The driver/amp with a flat kit that you can assemble. Or a fully assembled sub.
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SVS is saying a new powered sub in your price range will be out soon. If it arrives within your time frame it will more than likely also be a great option. You could also consider a 25-31CS with whatever the best amp you can find for the remaining $140USD is (something used more than likely).

 

[Quentin]

I have M22's as my mains, and the VP150 as my center (you should check this one out...it is a HUGE upgrade from the 100 for very little extra). I use f/x300i's as my surrounds and an Axiom VP Zero as my 6th channel.

My sub is an NHT Sub One and it blends well with the Axioms...not overpowering at all. You could also check out the PSB Subsonic 6, or the Adire Dharman. The HSU is also supposed to be nice. I think any of them will complement your system.

If you want a real bargain - Crutchfield is selling the Yamaha SW320 sub for $350. It's not as precise as some of the above subs, but it is VERY nice for HT (I auditioned one). If you're into music more than HT, it may be not be for you.

 

[Ryan Muldoon]

Thanks for all the replies so far! It seems like it would be wise for me to go with either the SVS, Rava, or VTF-2 from what people are saying so far....I'd prefer to avoid the "boomy" subs. I'd like good musical reproduction if at all possible. I'm interested to see what SVS is coming out with. I am not planning on buying tomorrow or anything, so I have some time to wait....especially if I end up with the Onkyo 600.
I think that the VP150 is a little out of my price range....$350 for a center is a bit much - double the cost of the VP100 factory outlet center. Someone also mentioned just an M3Ti for a center. I must plead ignorance here - I don't really know what the difference is between "center" speakers and bookshelf speakers. Since the M3Ti's are cheaper, I'd be interested to hear what the pros and cons are here. Also, what is "off-axis" mean, with centers? I've been trying to do research to learn about this stuff, but I still have some gaps in my knowledge.
Are the SVS, Rava, and VTF-2 all roughly the same price/performance-wise? What are the differences, for those of you that have done A/B comparisons?

 

[Dustin B]

The VP100 is a sealed speaker, while the M3 and M22 are ported. The VP100 uses a pair of 5.25" drivers and a 1" tweeter in a horizontal MTM (midwoof/tweeter/midwoof)arrangement.

The horizontal MTM arrangement is in general just a bad design choice for a horizontal centre channel. A vertical MTM arrangement has advantages. It limites vertical dispersion while still allowing good horizontal dispersion. When you put an MTM on it's side, then you get good vertical dispersion and limited horizontal dispersion. You want the good horizontal and limited vertical (you don't want sound bouncing of the roof and floor).

The larger problem though is lobing when you are off axis of the center. If you only sit directly infront of the centre channel (on axis) it won't be a problem. The further you go to the left or right of directly in front (off axis) you start to experience lobing. The crossover between the 5.25" drivers and the tweeter will be at a high enough frequency that the wave lengths the highest frequencies the 5.25" drivers produce will be shorter than the distance bewteen the two drivers. As you go off axis, the one 5.25" driver gets closer to you while the other one gets farther away. So the sound from the closer one gets to you before the other one. This is lobing and it is audible.

To solve this you need to get the crossover point to the midwoofs as low as possible and getting the two drivers as close together as possible. Neither of which the VP100 seems to do. The other solution is to use a 3way center, where there is a driver directly under the tweeter like a bookshelf and two woofers on either side.

A bookshelf center can't suffer from these problems. Plus a lot of people consider it the ideal to have identical speakers in every position.

Currently there isn't really a SVS model within your budget. If this new secret sub Tom and Ron are talking about comes about soon that will change. The VTF2 is a 10" ported sub. The Rava is a 12" sealed. If music is your main concern and you don't listen to organ type music or synthesised music with really really low bass then the Rava would be my choice. If HT was more your interest, then it would be a tough call between the Rava and VTF2 for me.

But I would strongly reccomend approaching Kyle at accoustic visions to see what he can do for you with $500 as I think he could beat both with that budget.

 

[Rick Radford]

Dustin,

How would you compare the VP150 (TMMMT)?

I have the VP100 and feel it's the weakest part of my setup (M60Ti/VP100/M3Ti). Sizewise, the VP100 or VP150 will just fit on the top of my TV in the entertainment center.

If one used an M3Ti as a CC, how about laying it on its side? Although with the M3Ti being rear ported, putting it inside the cabinet might not be a good idea. Otherwise, it would sit on top of a 63" high cabinet with the viewing position about 8-9 feet away. Hmmm... mulling the options here.

I could move the Vp100 to the rear for a 6.1 setup. Would the VP100 make a good rear center channel?

 

[Dustin B]

VP100 would have the same problem in the back as up front.
Yes, putting a rear ported enclosure in a cabinet would not be a good idea. And you could put the M3 on its side, but you would be destroying half its' benefit over the VP100. I would reccomend using it upright and just place somthing under the back of the cabinet to angle it down a bit.
I'm not sure what to make of the 150. I have never seen that arrangement used before. I would think it would make the lobing even worse. Now you have tweeters that are well over a foot apart.
Here is an example of a better layed out center channel (B&W Nautilus HTM1 also uses this layout along with a lot of other higher end brands):
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About the best implemenation of the horizontal MTM layout I've seen is the Paradigm StudioCC. They get the midwoofs quite close together and have a fairly steep crossover at 1500hz.

 

[Rick Radford]

Interesting link, Dustin.
I may pull one of my M3 surrounds and try it as a CC on top of the EC. I suspect the WAF may limit this to a temporary solution.

 

[Geoff L]

Dustin
Great link, should provide answers to so many question for those not understanding the MTM give up and trade offs lets just say.
Take the time to read through the entire link as a ton of information is their!
Those that have not listened to a center with these design technics would be floored at the difference it makes!
Again excellent link Dustin, and cudos to the ~{fantastic documentiom time}~ he took. Seems the hardest part when building anything DIY. I anyway, get to focused on getting it done and always seem to be to time short to shoot photos and take notes.
Great read

 

[DougO]

I may pull one of my M3 surrounds and try it as a CC on top of the EC. I suspect the WAF may limit this to a temporary solution.

Please do and keep us posted. I'm thrilled with the M22tiSEs I've decided to keep (still contemplating getting the M80s though up front). Now that I'm sold on Axiom, I'm planning the replacement of other non-Axiom speakers in my 6.1 setup with Axioms. If I stay with M22s all around (including center) this would deliver excellent multichannel music.

 

[Marcus Lewis]

I am also considering going with M22's all round! I thought I was the only one!

My only concern was getting that tall 22 positioned properly on top my TV ... Is a slight downward angle on the 22 perched atop a TV set viable? Or are we looking at a custom stand here?

 

[Dustin B]

I'd turn a M22 upside down and angle it down slightly. Use paper, thick rubber feet, wooden wedge, anything you can come up with as long as you are confident the speaker is stable. Also try and make sure that the front edge at the bottom of the speaker (top I guess if you flip it like I suggest) sticks out infront of the tv a little bit.

 

[Marcus Lewis]

Oh, I had'nt thought of turning the 22 upside down Dustin ... I guess that would be to keep the tweeters in line ...

This sounds more complicated than I thought ...

 

[Ron Reda]

Quentin,

Can you please expand upon the difference between the VP100 and the VP150? I (like Rick) feel that the VP100 is the weakest part of my speaker array (M50s, VP100, M3s) and was curious as to what I could expect be upgrading to the VP150.

Thanks,

Ron

 

[Rick Radford]

I'm gonna start a different thread about the CC so as not to further hijack this one!

 

[Ryan Muldoon]

could any Rava owners comment on how it performs? Or possibly compare it to the VTF-2? Thanks for all the information so far...including the interesting Center Channel tangent!