Sub Crossover Settings w/HK

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Jason Brent, Jan 4, 2003.

  1. Jason Brent

    Jason Brent Second Unit

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    I think I got it right, but I thought I should ask.

    I just got a 525 in a week ago. Running paradigm studio 60's, CC, Atlantic Tech 374 rears, and a PW-2200.

    I've played around with the crossover settings in the HK, and I think I've settled on these settings. 60 cycles for the mains and 80 for the center and surrounds. Right now I have the sub crossed at 60.

    My questions is, do I set the sub crossover for 60 or 80? I've set the sub's own crossover to it's highest point (150 Hz I think), since the HK should handle it's crossover point. Is that correct?

    Thanks for the help.
     
  2. Jack_V

    Jack_V Extra

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    My 525 came with an insert, that I think is on the HK site as well. It warns to always set the sub to the highest of the other settings or you will have a gap with no sound.

    So in your case set the sub to 80 on the HK, and on the sub to the highest point to get all the LFE channel.

    I'm not sure why the sub has a crossover in the menu.
     
  3. Jason Brent

    Jason Brent Second Unit

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    Hi Jack,

    Hmmm...I kind of remember something about that...I will look again.

    So will I be getting 'double bass' in the 60-80 Hz range with the above mentioned settings?

    I can run the 60's lower, they do fairly well on their own, but at high levels, it's asking an awful lot out of the 6 1/2's without bottoming out. Paradigm specs them at 42-22k +/- 2dB with a -3dB at 30 Hz in a 'typical room'

    Thanks for any input on this.
     
  4. Stephen Dodds

    Stephen Dodds Second Unit

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    The sub crossover in the menu is if you want to run your main speakers full range, and bring in the sub to augment them.

    If you don't have true full range speakers, I'd just set evrything at Small, 80Hz.

    Steve
     
  5. Jack_V

    Jack_V Extra

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    That's what I did, you can also try the LFE + L/R setting where low frequencies go to both the sub and fronts.
    For music I prefer the sub off, and just use the L and R.
    For movies, all small with a 80HZ cross.
    Here's the link to the HK insert:
    http://manuals.harman.com/HK/Owner%2...%20(FINAL).pdf
     
  6. Jason Brent

    Jason Brent Second Unit

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    I don't yet have the AVIA disc or the RS SPL meter, so all that I have done is with EZ set and my ears.

    I didn't like the LFE + L/R. Too bloated in the bass. I did some more experimenting last night placing them all at 80 cycles, but I found that I lost a little definition from kick drums and lower tom drums in some music that I tested it with.

    Actually in 2 channel, I like it at 40 Hz, but as I said earlier, at louder volume settings, it's a little much for the 60's. That's at volume settings above -10 on the dial.

    60 Hz sounds almost as good though, and it makes it a little easier on the paradigms.

    I didn't try to set the sub at 80 with the mains at 60, though. While I don't want to have a bass 'hole' from 60 to 80 Hz from the rear crossover setting, I also don't want to have both the mains and the sub reproducing freqs. in the 60-80 Hz region too. I guess my only options are to lower the rears crossover to 60 or to have the above mentioned 'hole' in the 60-80 Hz range from frequencies in the rear.

    Is there a lot of info in that area on the rear surrounds anyway??
     
  7. Joe Vidanes

    Joe Vidanes Auditioning

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  8. Baldemar Garcia

    Baldemar Garcia Stunt Coordinator

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    Jason,

    You do realize that your 60s are getting a full range signal when set to large, correct? The crossover setting for 'large' speakers is only a low-pass for the subwoofer. There is no difference in the signal sent to your main speakers with the different crossover values. Unless HK changed this for the x25 models.
     
  9. EricSm

    EricSm Stunt Coordinator

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    Hey Joe

    I don't know anything about the HK 525, but if the RM6700 is at all like the RM6600(which I'd guess it is), I can offer a few tips.

    As far as I know the satellites all have a built in high-pass filter at 150hz. I'd assume the center channel is the same though I've never gotten confirmation on that. That being said, I'd set the crossover setting for the HK as close to 150hz as you can get it for all speakers.

    By the way, I finally got a good explanation from Polk as to why they want you to run the the front l & r through the sub. The explanation they gave me after much questioning was that because the sats have a built in high pass filter and because the receiver would be using its internal filter when you set them to small you will be "double filtering" the speakers which they say leads to irregularities in frequency response. Apparently when running the front sats through the sub(at least the psw-350), the sub is sending a full range signal to the speakers which the speakers are in turn filtering out-- hence, no double filtering. Which I guess means that the filter dial on the sub is really only controlling what frequencies the sub plays, since it is passing on a full signal for the speakers to filter out themselves.

    Now, Polk does say that if your receiver has a feature to set a low pass filter for the sub to 150hz so that the sub will play all frequencies below 150hz and be able to set the fronts, surrounds, and center to large that would produce the same effect as wiring through the sub. Meaning, a full range signal would be sent to the speakers which their own internal filter would, well, filter... and then the sub would still be playing all frequencies below 150hz. Hope that makes some sense as it is kind of confusing.

    How do you like the 525 matched with your speakers? I'd be curious to try one out with my 6600's.
     
  10. Jason Brent

    Jason Brent Second Unit

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    Baldemar,

    Yes, I know that when the mains are set to large the crossover setting is just to determine what goes to the sub.

    I'm running everything as small. I'm just trying to determine the overall best way to set up the sub crossover with different crossover settings for the mains, center, and surrounds.

    Since I was home from work today, I did some more listening to various music sources (haven't done very much movie testing yet). For DVD-A and Sting's concert in DD, I like leaving the sub crossover where the mains are set. If I raise the sub crossover to 80 Hz (where the surrounds are set) the bass is over emphasized. I assume this is because both the sub and the mains are playing information in the 60-80 Hz region.

    I really need to get the AVIA test disc, as I think this would help out a lot for configuration. It seems that a lot of people here swear by it. Is there any other place to get it other than from ovation? They want $50.
     
  11. Joe Vidanes

    Joe Vidanes Auditioning

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    Hi Eric, thanks for the reply. To answer your question, you are correct, the center has the exact same stats as the other surround satellites.

    Also, is the explanation you provided for set-up using the Polk recommended setup of having all the speaker wires go through the sub? Since I placed my sub far away from my entertainment unit, I thought it would have been too messy (and not to mention expensive) to run so many long monster wires. I ended up merely buying a long sub cable which I ran directly to my LFE input (instead of buying a Y cable) which I also thought sounded just fine. I think I may try the Polk method sometime in the future when I buy more wires but that wont be for a while. In the meantime though, do you have any recommendations for the crossover settings with my setup?

    To answer your other question, yes I am thoroughly impressed with both the Polk speakers and the Harman receiver. Before buying this setup, I also tested the Onkyo 800 and Yamaha RXV2300 which are both in the $1000 neighborhood. For speakers, I was interested in satellites and tested the Bose AM10, the Infinity HTS-20, Boston Acoustics System 9000 II, Klipsch Synergy System 6 and the Polk 7200. My overall impressions/opinions are that: the Harman Kardon sounded "warmer" than both the Onkyo and the Yamaha. Also, I really liked the HK's remote control; Yamaha's remote isnt backlit; Onkyo's remote comes close but the determining factor for me was that HK had usable 4 macros (I use them all) vs 1 for Onkyo. My speaker search was somewhat harder to be honest. It's hard to judge speakers when its set up with different receivers. Anyway, what I found is for the price range, the Polk 6700s in my opinion sounded better than all the other speaker sets I tested! Other than perhaps the Boston Acoustics which were a bit more, for the value the 6700's beat the rest hands down.

    When I'm in my basement watching movies, I just can't tell ya how pleased I am when I hear how realistic it is to hear birds chirping or mosquitoes buzzing or rain dripping. For music, I use Stereo 5 and it's about as loud as I can handle. Anyway, sorry for the long response. This is the first time I've shard my experience with anyone (other than my wife, who's been really patient since she went with me to all the stores!).

    Anyway, I emailed Harman Kardon with the same question I posted here so I'll post if when I get their response to their recommended crossover settings.
     
  12. Joe Vidanes

    Joe Vidanes Auditioning

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    As promised...here are the responses (got 2):

    Joe,
    Good evening and thank you for your inquiry. Based on the
    specifications of the speakers, and subwoofer, I would recommend setting the
    all of the speakers to "SMALL", with crossovers for each set to 100Hz. If
    the crossover setting is set to "GLOBAL" the crossover setting will be for
    all of the speakers. You can change each speaker individually, if you'd
    like. But, since all of the satellite speakers are the same, and they are
    not able to handle real deep bass, setting the crossovers to 100Hz will
    allow the subwoofer to reproduce all frequencies BELOW 100Hz, with the
    speakers receiving all frequencies ABOVE 100Hz.

    I hope this helps.


    ----------------------

    Hi Joe,

    It is really hard to say what this should be set at, just based on numbers.
    You really need to listen and decide for yourself which way sounds the best.
    However, based on the numbers, a good starting point would be 100Hz. Try
    setting everything to 100Hz, but you may end up changing this. You don't
    have to have a perfect match. In other words, the speakers could be set to
    100Hz, and the sub could be set to 80Hz. On paper it may look like there is
    a hole, but if it sounds best that way, this is what is most important.


    I hope this helps.


    Sincerely,

    -----------------------

    Then I called Polk and actually spoke with someone. His recommendations were 80 HZ for the satellites and 150 HZ for the sub. Since the HK AVR 525 only goes to 120 HZ then 200, I set it for 120 HZ. Any other Harman 525 owners have any input on this?
     

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