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Studio 60 and CC to "big", and SVS blends better, and other speaker points.

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Eugene Hsieh, Aug 17, 2001.

  1. Eugene Hsieh

    Eugene Hsieh Supporting Actor

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    Hmmm... I dunno about the people here suggesting sending all the bass info to the sub, because it doesn't seem to work so well for me. OTOH, I set my not so big Paradigm Studio 60 and Studio CC to big (with an 80 Hz crossover), and my 25-31PC seems to blend better. Essentially disappears.
    Now all I've got to do is hook up my Monitor 7 surrounds. I'll do some room measurements, and it should prove interesting once my ART 31 equalizer comes in the mail from SVS.
    P.S. My Studio 60s are an improvement over my Monitor 7s, but I dunno if they're worth 3X the price to everyone. For me, I like 'em and thought I got a reasonable deal though. I wonder what they'll be like after my break in period.
    Going from a CC-150 (sold many moons ago) to a Studio CC was a humungous improvement as expected.
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    Eugene Hsieh, VisorCentral FAQ Editor
    1000 km on a tank of gas??? Check out the Prius and drive the future now!
     
  2. Doug_B

    Doug_B Screenwriter

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    Eugene,
    Interesting that you posted a sub / mains integration post just before a post of mine which attacks a similar topic.
    Some thoughts on your post:
    - I don't own Studio 60s, but I have demoed them extensively in the last few months. They may not be so big, as you put it, but I was impressed with their bass extension versus other "similar-sized" speakers. I think they don't even give up a heck of a lot down low to the more well regarded Studio 100s. Note that these opinions are directed more towards music than HT, but I can believe that setting the 60s to large even for HT can sound better than setting them to small, as long as the SVS is also able to see that bass (instead of just the bass from the surrounds). By the way, you seemed to be contradictory when you mentioned that the 60s and the CC were set to big with an 80Hz crossover. Did you mean that just the surrounds were tied to the crossover, or something else?
    As to the value of the 60s given a 3x price over the Monitor 7s, only you can decide the value. For me, I wouldn't hesitate, because my budget is comfortably higher than the cost of the 60s and I perceive a distinct difference, even though the 7s impress me for their cost. BTW, does the 3x represent Canadian$, because I think it's more like 2x (retail) in US$ ?
    Doug
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  3. DavidY

    DavidY Supporting Actor

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    Eugene,
    quote: My Studio 60s are an improvement over my Monitor 7s, but I dunno if they're worth 3X the price to everyone. For me, I like 'em and thought I got a reasonable deal though. I wonder what they'll be like after my break in period.[/quote]
    3X the price, I don't think so....My Studio/60 V.1 (floor models) were about 50% more than what I would have paid for the Monitor 7 V.1. These prices for these demos were CDN$1100 with 14% taxes. Studio/20 V.1 and CC-450 were also CDN$1100 with taxes. Studio/20 and the Monitor 7 have been very similarly priced. Without a doubt, I would take the Studio/20 over the Monitor 7 any day of the week....improved sound, and much better build quality (just compare the quality of the drivers...not even close IMO).
    IMO, the Studio series were much better than the value priced Monitor series. After break-in for about a week or so, the sound improves noticeably IMO.
    Just my 2 cents Canadian.
    Dave
    [Edited last by DavidY on August 17, 2001 at 01:23 AM]
     
  4. Eugene Hsieh

    Eugene Hsieh Supporting Actor

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  5. Steve_D

    Steve_D Second Unit

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    Eugene-
    Hmmm, I have my Studio 40's with the same driver compliment as the 60's set to small, and have 20-80 HZ down to +-4 db at the prime listening location from a SVS 16-46 sub. +-4db "real in room" measurement is very flat.
    When set to large, there is a ~55 HZ +12 db peak, and several other smaller peaks and nulls, but I do get -3 db at 30HZ in my room at my speaker position.
    Are you doing actual test tone testing with an RTA or CD+SPL, or are you going by your ears? I do have the sub channel 1/3rd octave EQ'd (ART 351), with a significant EQ reduction @ 80HZ, but the rest of the bands are pretty flat.
    So, in my room, I have the opposite experience with similar equipment.
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  6. Eugene Hsieh

    Eugene Hsieh Supporting Actor

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    I do not yet have my equalizer so at this point I haven't bothered doing the retests with the Studio 60 set as big.
    However, I was hearing a bit of a bass boom from the sub with my Monitor 7 set as small, and when I measured it with my Radio Shack meter I did have a 6+ db peak (corrected values) in the 60-80+ Hz range. (Not sure about the exact numbers - it's been a while since I did the tests. Somewhere in between about 55-90 anyway.)
    My suspicion is that my room augments that bass range, especially with certain placements of the sub. While I have only measured this with the Monitor 7, I get the same effect with the Studio 60 set as small. Not only does the bass get boomy, the sub becomes fairly easily localizable, even with the sub's low pass filter set to around 70 Hz. Put the receiver to small, and the problem is greatly alleviated, and at the same time I still get the lower Hz from the SVS I bought it for. Probably having the bass come out of several different locations reduces the augmentation of that 60-80 bass range.
    I guess the bottom line as illustrated by both of is that everyone's set-to-big vs. set-to-small advice is in some ways irrelevant, because it really varies from setup to setup.
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    Eugene Hsieh, VisorCentral FAQ Editor
    1000 km on a tank of gas??? Check out the Prius and drive the future now!
     
  7. Eugene Hsieh

    Eugene Hsieh Supporting Actor

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    I do not yet have my equalizer so at this point I haven't bothered doing the retests with the Studio 60 set as big.
    However, I was hearing a bit of a bass boom from the sub with my Monitor 7 set as small, and when I measured it with my Radio Shack meter I did have a 6+ db peak (corrected values) in the 60-80+ Hz range. (Not sure about the exact numbers - it's been a while since I did the tests. Somewhere in between about 55-90 anyway.)
    My suspicion is that my room augments that bass range, especially with certain placements of the sub. While I have only measured this with the Monitor 7, I get the same effect with the Studio 60 set as small. Not only does the bass get boomy, the sub becomes fairly easily localizable, even with the sub's low pass filter set to around 70 Hz. Put the receiver to small, and the problem is greatly alleviated, and at the same time I still get the lower Hz from the SVS I bought it for. Probably having the bass come out of several different locations reduces the augmentation of that 60-80 bass range.
    I guess the bottom line as illustrated by both of is that everyone's set-to-big vs. set-to-small advice is in some ways irrelevant, because it really varies from setup to setup.
     
  8. Jay Mitchosky

    Jay Mitchosky Producer

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    Have you experimented with any Dolby Surround or digital x.0 channel tracks and evaluated their low end performance yet? Curious as to the results.
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    "No one can hear when you're screaming in digital."
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  9. Steve_D

    Steve_D Second Unit

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    Jay,
    Me?
    I have done more experiments than you can shake a stick at, and I plan on writing a "definitive" SVS sub dialing in post after I finally get all the new gear in place, I'm still waiting on 2 amplifiers.
    I would love to get my hands on a test tone DVD with stepped freq tracks at least 20-100 HZ recorded in Dolby Digital and/or DTS.
    Anyone know of such a beast?
    The reason I ask is that each different mode on my receiver (Denon 3801) that I have been able to test has different bass response. I can test everything but the digital discrete modes with my recorded in stereo testing CD.
    Here's one thing I can say for sure....changing the ART's high pass filter even by 2 HZ, from about 12 to about 14) made a large gain (+ 2-3 db)in sub output in the 20-90 range.
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  10. Eugene Hsieh

    Eugene Hsieh Supporting Actor

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    quote: Put the receiver to small, and the problem is greatly alleviated, and at the same time I still get the lower Hz from the SVS I bought it for.[/quote]Oops, that should have been "Put the receiver to big, and the problem is greatly alleviated, and at the same time I still get the lower Hz from the SVS I bought it for."
    Jay, I have not yet tested a lot of Dolby Surround material or DD5.0 material with my current setup. I will wait until my equalizer arrives before I do too much more testing. However, it seems that what I've stated above is still true, whole with a few DD5.1 tracks that setting my receiver to large means some loss of the ultra low bass information that the SVS is capable of, for obvious reasons. OTOH, with some DD5.1 titles, the difference isn't that great, presumably because they concentrate that information in the 0.1 channel.
    Nonetheless all of this may change once I have an equalizer to play with, and more time to do objective testing.
    I am in the market for a new receiver. Who knows may I'll get one with pre-out pre-in and stick equalizers across the mains too if necessary.
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    Eugene Hsieh, VisorCentral FAQ Editor
    1000 km on a tank of gas??? Check out the Prius and drive the future now!
    [Edited last by Eugene Hsieh on August 18, 2001 at 08:32 PM]
     
  11. Jack Gilvey

    Jack Gilvey Producer

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    What's the lower limit of your 3 fronts?
     
  12. Eugene Hsieh

    Eugene Hsieh Supporting Actor

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    The mains and surrounds much better than the CC (and I will test with the CC set as small and mains as large - haven't tried this combo yet).
    Paradigm Studio Specifications .
    Paradigm Monitor Specifications .
    Mains - Studio/60:
    On-Axis (0°) ±2dB from 42Hz-22kHz
    Off-Axis (30°) ±2dB from 42Hz-20kHz
    Low Frequency Extension 30Hz (DIN)
    Centre - Studio/CC:
    On-Axis (0°) ±2dB from 70Hz-22kHz
    Off-Axis (30°) ±2dB from 70Hz-20kHz
    Low Frequency Extension 42Hz (DIN)
    Surrounds - Monitor 7
    On Axis (0°) ±2dB from 47Hz-20kHz
    Off Axis (30°) ±2dB from 47Hz-18kHz
    Low Frequency Extension 34Hz (DIN)
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    Eugene Hsieh, VisorCentral FAQ Editor
    1000 km on a tank of gas??? Check out the Prius and drive the future now!
     
  13. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

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    Are you a guy who likes to crank movies up?
    If so, then play Lost In Space ,and watch you woofers severly bottoming out as the movie "title" rolls over the screen.
    Any speaker that don't pass this test,and you a "reference" kinda guy, should set your speakers to small.
    For music ,I've yet to encounter with such dynamic jump so you're safe.
    My speakers are the DT BP10's and they failed as well.
    I also did several test with Avia,and I got much smoother response from 200hz to 20hz with'em set to small.
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  14. Trevor Schell

    Trevor Schell Supporting Actor

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    I love my fronts set to Large. This gives me a larger soundstage across the front and better imaging. Setting to small does not have the same impact.
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  15. Chip E

    Chip E Screenwriter

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    I set my Silveri's to large, C6i to small, rears to small... this works good to me with a 20-39PC.
    - Chip
    ps. finally have my new 10S's for surround duty. I'll hang'em today. If anyone could use a pair if Infinity QPS1 surrounds cheap, lemme know.
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  16. Eugene Hsieh

    Eugene Hsieh Supporting Actor

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  17. John-D

    John-D Stunt Coordinator

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    pardon me if i've missed it.. but what receiver/pre-pro are you using Eugene? Do you know it's filter slope?
    Regards.
     
  18. Eugene Hsieh

    Eugene Hsieh Supporting Actor

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    It's a Kenwood 1080VR. 80 Hz crossover, and I don't know the slope off the top of my head.
    This receiver will be upgraded VERY soon. Dunno which one yet. Considering Outlaw 1050 or 950, or Integra 6.2, etc.
    I wonder how these match up with the Panasonic RP91. (See other thread.)
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    Eugene Hsieh, VisorCentral FAQ Editor
    1000 km on a tank of gas??? Check out the Prius and drive the future now!
     
  19. John-D

    John-D Stunt Coordinator

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    hmmmm does this mean your new Studio 60's are producing better bass at 50-80Hz than your SVS??
     
  20. KeithH

    KeithH Lead Actor

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    I listened to the Studio 60s last weekend in demoing speakers for music. To me, their definite strength was their bass output. Very punchy, which might appeal to some. Unfortunately, I found the Paradigms to be lacking in the midrange and treble. I also didn't want such punchy bass. I went with Totem Arros, which I feel were better all around. Still, I won't argue with the bass output from the Paradigms. As for my opinions, your mileage may vary.
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