Stryke Subwoofer comparison question

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by DaveAr, Oct 27, 2003.

  1. DaveAr

    DaveAr Stunt Coordinator

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    I finally got thru to John at Stryke Custom Audio Solutions). I was looking for info on their Mini - Thunder subwoofer. According to him the Mini-Thunder is 16x16x17" high with the legs. It has a 12" Woofer, 2 12" passive resistors (one on each side) and a 350 watt amp. THE FOLLOWING IS PASTED FROM HIS RESPONSE TO ME "As far as comparisons between the SVS and HSU go, the MiniThunder has one big advantage in the PR's. The smaller SVS subs are tuned to 25hz. You really don't get much output below the tuning frequency at all. The Pr's allow you to tune much lower because they fit right on the sides. Longer ports are nearly impossible to fit in the smaller enclosures, and they also have problems with vent noise and compression which will limit output. The PR's do not have vent noise, and do not compress at all". He claims based on performance specs that his sub will go lower than the HSU VTF-2. He is familiar with Ron from SVS and can compare his to the PB1-ISD. The price for Stryke sub is 549.00 + shipping and is available in many diff finishes at no extra cost. These are built to order and would take approx 2 weeks to receive. Any thoughts? Any other questions I can pose to him to get the record straight on the products? Warranties are 1yr amp, 2yr driver. Whatta ya think. Suggestions.:b
     
  2. mark rush

    mark rush Stunt Coordinator

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    they build some great subs, you will like what they have
     
  3. Mike Sloan

    Mike Sloan Second Unit

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    I don't see any innacuracies in his discussion. Probably be a nice subwoofer!
     
  4. Brett DiMichele

    Brett DiMichele Producer

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    John laid it out to you in black and white and I agree with
    his summary. And he's a very skilled wood worker, I guarentee
    any sub he builds for you will be nothing short of gorgeous.

    Plus like he said, he offers MANY different finishes "Standard"
    that you can't even get with most subs.

    SVS and HSU build subs for the masses, and they both do a
    great job. John designs his own enclosures, drivers and uses
    spec'd amps from Brian at Rythmic Audio. The end product is
    a one off custom sub that you won't find on the shelf anywhere.

    You wouldn't go wrong with any of the afformentioned companies.
     
  5. Rory Buszka

    Rory Buszka Supporting Actor

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    yeah, Stryke is still a fairly small operation, but that sub price in an introductory price (just for a limited time) so it looks like SVS is still the real value leader once the introdctory period ends. Also, this is not to say that SVS is not an awesome subwoofer maker. The SVS makes the best design choices for most people (heck, I'd LOVE an SVS) but for the concerns you outlined in your previous post (you didn't necessarily desire the ability to rock the block) the Stryke sub seems to make the right design choices for you.

    For direct comparison, the PB1-ISD only has a 320-watt amp as compared to the Stryke's 350, and its proce is $600, not $650 as I had been saying. The Stryke, for the time being, is $50 less and has 30 more watts, and has a deeper frequency response, but this is only the best value until the introductory period ends. Definitely go for it before the introductory period ends. Its small size (16" cube is really quite small once you look at it) and nice finish will please the wife as well, without sacrificing the ability to get the big output you're paying for.

    I don't mean to rip on anyone who bought a SVS PB1-ISD. SVS is an outstanding company with first-rate products and cutsomer service that is second to none for the type of large-scale production company it is. I just wanted to make sure I said that. In this case, the Stryke sub is the option most suited to Dave's goals in terms of features and capability for the price.

    Dave, I hope you'll write back and tell us how you like the Stryke sub, as well as the rest of your home theater project.
     
  6. Stephen Hopkins

    Stephen Hopkins HW Reviewer
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    What driver is the Mini-thunder using?
     
  7. Rory Buszka

    Rory Buszka Supporting Actor

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    The Stryke Mini Thunder uses the same PC12 driver used in the Thunder 12 uses, as far as I can tell. It just uses smaller passive radiators. Output is not limited by the smaller size, though. I know the Stryke PC12 driver is a quality part, because I have not known John to use any less. Expect the driver to feature a powerful motor with a vented pole piece, a rubber surround, a stiff cone (the SVS drivers use a Paper/Kevlar mix, and I think this woofer may as well) and a cast basket. All of these I am sure the Mini Thunder has. The passive radiators even use cast frames, as I remember, and rubber surrounds for longevity. This one will last a while.
     
  8. Stephen Hopkins

    Stephen Hopkins HW Reviewer
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    I wonder what a mini-thunder w/ an AV12 would be like... i think they have the cabinet available by it's self, it's just not on the website yet...
     
  9. Brian Bunge

    Brian Bunge Producer

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    While doing the AOL IM thing with John last night he stated the Mini Thunder could use either his SAE1204 drivers or the AV12.
     
  10. Stephen Hopkins

    Stephen Hopkins HW Reviewer
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    Any price difference? And what kind of F3 and SQ on the AV12 based mini-thunder?

    Thanks [​IMG]
     
  11. Rory Buszka

    Rory Buszka Supporting Actor

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    Technically, you could adjust the tuning of the passive radiators such that most any 12" driver could be used in there (within reason...the Sadhara driver probably is not a good candidate). This would be accomplished simply by varying the mass on each of the passive radiators. The AV-12 woofer in the Mini Thunder would probably own the original driver, but probably at a fair increase in cost. However, if the aluminum cone impresses you enough to get the upgraded driver, you can go right ahead but I think that you will be plenty happy with the original driver. As for F3 - that can also be designed into the box. The original design of the Mini Thunder sounds like it's already designed to provide a fair bit of extension below 25 Hz, and you can't expect smaller drivers (10"/12") to go extremely low (16 or 15 Hz) with much authority at all. Tuning the passive radiators lower has the same effect as tuning a port lower, except that when the weight is large in proportion to the diaphragm's size, the bass sounds more muddied because the passives tend to get more of a mind of their own. Again, if you want to trade-off speed and agility (which in themselves are almost as important for good bass as LF extension, but that's somewhat subjective) for low, low extension, perhaps you can talk to John. One thing's for sure, though, you definitely do not get this level of control on a ported box. It is only the variable mass of the passive radiators that allows their tuning to be adjusted.
     
  12. Jack Gilvey

    Jack Gilvey Producer

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  13. DanWiggins

    DanWiggins Second Unit

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  14. Rory Buszka

    Rory Buszka Supporting Actor

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    That's what I hoped to convey. Perhaps with a pair of 18" PRs, the Sadhara woofer would be right at home, but most 12" PRs would be ripped apart, simply because of the extreme throw nature of the Sadhara driver.

    Jack - I'm not personally experienced with that, but I don't think I'm BSing, either. It's just going off of what I have heard experienced listeners saying on nearly every major forum I have been on, and I am making conjectures about why this is so. What I meant to say was that perhaps Dave could have John tune the PRs lower for him if he wanted to get lower, but when you look at the band of frequencies you can realistically hit with a 12" subwoofer driver, it would hardly be worth it, and I'm sure John has already designed into the Mini Thunder all the extension anyone would normally want, balanced well with the other factors like transient response and power handling. Dave will be very happy with the Mini Thunder and should go for it. I hope I'm not making Dave feel confused by talking about all the technical aspects of the design of the Mini Thunder.

    Dave, if you're reading this: Just go ahead and get the Stryke Mini Thunder subwoofer. Knowing the repuation of the products that John Janowitz designs, I know you will find it to be well-designed and built with very high quality components (this is a serious subwoofer), and perfect for suiting your listening tastes both now (when bass isn't a super-huge concern for you) and in the future (when you discover how awesome the bass on DVD soundtracks truly is). You would do well to take advantage of the introductory price while it is there, because this looks like an exceptional product.
     
  15. John E Janowitz

    John E Janowitz Second Unit

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    Hi Everyone,

    Thought I'd put a little bit of my input in here. Whether the MiniThunder is the best overall value depends on how you look at things. At the intro price, on a performance basis it will compete with any subwoofer out there. The standard MiniThunder uses the SAE1204 woofer and a pair of 12" PR's with 970g each. This gives a tuning frequency of right around 22hz, which is impossible with standard ports. A 4" diameter vent would need to be nearly 50" long to give this tuning frequency. The system has our typical shallow rolloff that matches well with room gain in most rooms. This gives good bass extension, while making sure the low end is not boomy. You can expect in room response down to just about 20hz.

    Then what you need to take into account is that Stryke Audio does not mass produce subwoofers. Every cabinet is a custom piece that is hand built and hand finished for you. You get the ability to have nearly any finish you want. There are 14 standard real veneer finishes that come at no extra cost, and many others that can be upgraded for just the difference in price between the standard veneer sheets. The finish is a high build industrial Valspar conversion varnish. It is very durable and chemically resistive for a long lasting finish.

    Regarding the comments about the bass sounding "muddy" when more mass is added to the PR's, this is not the case at all. The lower you tune a system, the more it begins to act like a sealed system. If you could theoretically tune to 0hz, you would essentially have a sealed box. The lower you tune, the better your group delay and phase response become, and the tighter the bass begins to sound.

    John
     
  16. Rory Buszka

    Rory Buszka Supporting Actor

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    There it is from the man. He has a lot more experience with PRs than I do.
    I meant to say that the PRs become more aperiodic as the mass is increased beyond a certain point (like the theoretical enclosure tuned to 0 Hz which would require an infinitely long port.
     
  17. Jack Gilvey

    Jack Gilvey Producer

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  18. Rory Buszka

    Rory Buszka Supporting Actor

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    It could have been that PR and ported enclosures were being compared to sealed boxes in terms of group delay in the particular discussion threads, which would have given me that impression. Or perhaps it was in the context of talking about the relatively muddy Definitive SuperCube subwoofer, which could have led me to the conclusion that it was muddy just because the long-throw driver was in such a small box, pushing PR physics to its limits (which I see is not the case). Here is one discussion thread in which PR subs are generalized as being slower. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...+radiator+slow
    This is another, from the same forum, where "kelticwizard" says PRs worsen transient response: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...447&highlight= (and yes, I just now noticed the post right below that talking about the consequences of questioning passive radiator physics on the Home Theater Forum which it appears I have just done.)
    Here is another one. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...552&highlight= (I actually posted to this thread, but I only talked about the design flexibility that PRs introduce, not the sound.)
    I guess I will find out, as I am looking into building a passive radiator enclosure for my sub to help it go low without port noise (because I was young and stupid when I designed it and the port is a little too small, with the accompanying noise effects). When I model it in a vented box and try to get any extension out of it in a reasonable size enclosure, two 3" ports are already sticking out the back (due to the high Mms of the driver, I guess) so I am turning to passive radiators. I guess I can now find out subjectively for myself how the transient response is. I've also heard other things that have led me to believe that the passive radiators with spiders actually make it possible for the active cone to have less excursion. I know a properly-tuned reflex box can bring the cone to a near standstill at the tuning frequency, but do PRs do a better job of this?

    I suppose, as far as the design goes, any PR design can go wrong just like any ported design can go wrong. The designer just has to pay more attention to group delay associated with the operation of the passive radiators. I am fairly sure that John, having much experience with PRs because of Stryke's specialization in long-excursion bass drivers (often accompanied by high Mms, necessitating the use of PRs), has paid close attention to the group delay being introduced by his passive radiators, so the Mini Thunder is probably a very well-tuned design, making it still a very solid buy in the subwoofer world, especially as compared to the Definitive Supercubes (which have been described as boomy) and Klipsch RSW which have also been described as lacking definition. I have heard the RSW 10, and it sounded a little sloppy to me, but I liked the Paradigm subs I listened to when I was in that store. The Definitive PowerMonitors also had decent bass, but part of that could have been my "wow" factor at hearing so much bass from the small enclosure. I don't know. Don't listen to me. Buy an SVS instead, everybody seems to like those.
     
  19. Jack Gilvey

    Jack Gilvey Producer

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    Two different disussions it seems. Those threads you reference indicate that PR subs have inferior transient response to sealed and ported. They do, it's a 5th order system. What you stated was that increasing Mms in a PR degrades transient response, which is false.

     

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